Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

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Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:45 am

I just wanted to say a(nother) big thank you to Blake for being so relentless in his search for better and better methods of teaching disc golf techniques and for trying to find the common threads in the techniques of the most successful people that play our fringe sport.

In many ways, developing disc golf skills reminds me a lot of when I used to practice an insane amount as a battle DJ. There were all these top people out there that you could recognize as being insanely good, but the differences in their techniques were at least as big as the similarities. So you would watch a video over and over again and try to replicate or emulate a battle routine (or a putting style) in hopes of finding some new insights that you could incorporate into your own style. You do this enough and you started to develop something that is successful for you. But there were no real teaching authorities and no universally accepted fundamentals. Just a bunch of tips and techniques that were stitched together such that no two up and comers could have what somebody would describe as the same set of fundamentals. This sounds a lot like Disc Golf to me.

I know that, mechanically, there are some fundamentals that all successful throwers share, but the differences in forms are still much greater than any other sport I can think of (short of MMA). It's amazing to me that Blake (and others) have been able to sit down and take the techniques of so many pros and boil them down into one or two sets of solid fundamentals such that there is a point in the future where you can picture one or two universal "fundamentally sound forms" that all the up and comers that take the sport seriously would have. It seems crazy that you could do this when folks like Feldberg, McCabe, Russel and Locastro (a random collection of very good putters) all have putting forms whose mechanics vary drastically, but it also wasn't so long ago that half the NBA shot free-throws underhand.

Anyway. Thanks Blake for being, as I said above, relentless.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby garublador » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:52 am

Word.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby JR » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 am

This thread comes up every year and it's still true.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:34 pm

Yay annual celebrations!
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Blake_T » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:13 pm

thanks josser.

it's something i keep working towards every year. better teaching methods and more clear understanding of the true fundamentals. disc golf can't become a sport until there are some standard fundamentals that are in place... until that time it will remain a game.

i think we're closer than most people are willing to accept. imo, there's 3 primary successful throwing styles and nearly everyone is a derivative of one of these three: lagged arm, carolina, swedish.

i think there's only 2 primary putting releases and a few "trick" putts (turbo, end over end, horse shoe, etc.).

i don't really think disc golf differs from other sports in this regards. i can't name 2 MLB players who have identical batting stances and swings. you'll find greater similarities with pitchers but you'll also find some whacked out variations that also achieve success. in football you'll find running backs that run standing tall, runners that stay low to the ground, ones that run well laterally and others that have a tremendous straight line head of steam. quarterbacks have lots of variation but its only in recent years that teams have shunned non-over-the-top throwers. with receivers you have hand catchers and chest catchers. defense adds another huge dimension when it comes to pass rushing techniques and tackling. boxing has in-fighters and out-fighters and tons of variations in positionings, jabbing styles, knock out punches, and counter punches. in basketball guys like larry bird and reggie miller were tremendous shooters but had relatively poor shot fundamentals.

you can't treat things like a mirror of perfection. there's three sides to it all:
1) how close to the ideal perfect form?
2) how successful are they?
3) how much does their spot in regards to #1 affect #2?

the most i can say is, we're getting there. the hold up right now is that 75% of the perfect form is timing and it's incredibly difficult to teach perfect timing.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Wed Aug 25, 2010 10:31 pm

Blake_T wrote:the most i can say is, we're getting there. the hold up right now is that 75% of the perfect form is timing and it's incredibly difficult to teach perfect timing.


The lack of universally accepted/used terminology makes it even more challenging.

Out of curiosity, what would you say are the two primary putting releases?
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Blake_T » Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:44 pm

two primary putting releases:
1. finger spring/palm push. while people might talk about one or the other being primary, all finger spring putts have some palm push and all palm push putts have some finger spring (if they don't, they end up being weak and wobbly). key to look for: their hand is behind the disc upon release.

2. slide out. this one tends to be less consistent. if they are a nose up putter you'll notice a trend of the slide happening in the 1 o'clock to 3 o'clock range. if they are a flat putter it's going to be in the 2 o'clock to 4 o'clock range.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:23 am

Would Feldberg's putting being considered slide-out? From the putting clinic videos that I saw, he seems to be trying to teach finger spring, but he also is getting people to follow-through by reaching to the pole with their fingers which makes it so you can't really get your hand behind the disc at release.

(Note that I have put in 10-12 hours trying to learn this (Feldberg's) putting method and haven't been able to get the hang of it, probably because of not being able to get the hang of finger spring in general.)
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Blake_T » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:33 pm

the video i have of him on the DGR site putting does have finger spring and palm push. it's not always a standard % of each on a putt for a given player.

some might have 90% emphasis on finger spring 10% on palm push. another might be 40% spring 60% push. what's important is that it's a mix of both that happens.

the way to tell if it's a spring/push putt: the wrist changes angle BEFORE the putter is released. the wrist usually stops changing angle upon release.
the way to tell if it's a slide putt: the wrist doesn't change angle at all, changes AFTER the putter is released, or changes AS the putter is released.

all finger spring is is a push with the finger tips. throw a paper airplane. that is finger spring.

people can get quite good at any putting style if they sink in the reps. it takes 20,000+ reps. my putting style solidified when i threw 100,000 putts in one summer. good putting isn't born, it's made.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby masterbeato » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:52 pm

Hey Blake,

Please clarify for us exactly the difference in throwing styles in drives for the people that may not know what it is whenever you have the patience, and i do not want to get anything wrong by trying to explain it myself. (lagged arm, carolina, and swedish.)
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby masterbeato » Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:54 pm

josser wrote:probably because of not being able to get the hang of finger spring in general.)


think of it by lifting the disc with your finger tips before you release.

the release is popping your fingers off with such force that all of your fingers do not touch the rim of the disc coming out, and they all leave at precisely the same exact time.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:29 pm

Blake_T wrote:the video i have of him on the DGR site putting does have finger spring and palm push. it's not always a standard % of each on a putt for a given player.

some might have 90% emphasis on finger spring 10% on palm push. another might be 40% spring 60% push. what's important is that it's a mix of both that happens.


My expertise is not refined enough to see the palm push in those videos. Since I have put in some time working on that put, I know how important the finger spring is. Before you defined the slide out and finger spring/palm push categories, I would have categorized Feldberg as finger spring (like I said, I still can't see the palm push). But with the wrist only going from slightly closed to neutral and his hand not seeming to ever actually get behind the disc I got confused.

Blake_T wrote:the way to tell if it's a spring/push putt: the wrist changes angle BEFORE the putter is released. the wrist usually stops changing angle upon release.
the way to tell if it's a slide putt: the wrist doesn't change angle at all, changes AFTER the putter is released, or changes AS the putter is released.


I like these two definitions. They help with me putting Feldberg in the right box.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Fri Aug 27, 2010 11:35 pm

masterbeato wrote:
josser wrote:probably because of not being able to get the hang of finger spring in general.)


think of it by lifting the disc with your finger tips before you release.

the release is popping your fingers off with such force that all of your fingers do not touch the rim of the disc coming out, and they all leave at precisely the same exact time.


I have a few different kinds of putts that I practice regularly, mostly to see which one gives me the most consistency over time. One of them is less-than-excellent version of Blake's push putt from your video. Based on your descriptions above, I think I night actually have managed to get pretty decent finger spring on the push putt. I will have to practice some putts and check it out tomorrow, but I don't feel like I've ever gotten anything that I would describe as a palm push.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby masterbeato » Sat Aug 28, 2010 12:01 am

it always feels different or is not what you would expect it to feel from someones description vs. how it actually feels for you.

it is very difficult stuff to grasp and people take it differently which is why teachers have to try different ways of explaining.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Blake_T » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:47 am

most people suck at putting. it's polarized like... they're either very good putters or mediocre putters.

the way to really look at it is that you have 2 ways of missing:
1 - your technique execution failed.
2 - your target line was incorrect (aka mis-aimed).

when very good putters miss, it's like a 20% because of #1 and like 80% because of #2.

when mediocre putters miss, it's like a 50/50 split between 1 and 2 (or even worse on #1).

you have to assume that any time finger spring is used that there is at least some palm push, even if it's very very minor.

at the same time you can generate tons of pop with palm push if you initiate the motion by "rolling the disc" forward along your hand and giving it a bit of finger spring at the end.

what most people think of as a push putt isn't really a true push putt. turbo putting is a true push putt and there are a few other methods that truly qualify as a push putt.

But with the wrist only going from slightly closed to neutral and his hand not seeming to ever actually get behind the disc I got confused.


think about it this way. if the wrist goes from closed to neutral and then abruptly stops there will be forced transferred to the disc and it will jump off of the hand.

if you get down both releases with a high level of proficiency you can basically mimic anyone's putt and figure out what makes it work. what you really gain a feel for isn't anything you can see in a video.

Please clarify for us exactly the difference in throwing styles in drives for the people that may not know what it is whenever you have the patience, and i do not want to get anything wrong by trying to explain it myself. (lagged arm, carolina, and swedish.)


bleh...

lagged arm = the angle of the upper arm and the shoulders collapses at the start of the rotation. basically, the shoulders move before the disc moves.

carolina = the angle of the upper arm and the shoulders stays fairly constant until the late part of the throw. the shoulders and disc move at the same time.

swedish = the swing plane of the shoulders goes almost vertical and sweep through almost like a hockey slapshot, the primary force being generated by levering the disc.

the longest overall throwers tend to be lagged arm or swedish. there is a disproportionately high number of "long enough" throwers that throw carolina (the % of long throwing carolina / the number of carolina throwers is very high).

the problem that most people have is that they focus on the wrong differences and fail to see the similarities. like, focusing on 2 batters who have different batting stances but nearly identical swings. people want to state they are different because their stances are different. similarly, they won't see 2 batters with identical stances but completely different swings as being different.
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