Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:50 pm

Blake_T wrote:the way to really look at it is that you have 2 ways of missing:
1 - your technique execution failed.
2 - your target line was incorrect (aka mis-aimed).

when very good putters miss, it's like a 20% because of #1 and like 80% because of #2.

when mediocre putters miss, it's like a 50/50 split between 1 and 2 (or even worse on #1).


:( :( :(

I am a mediocre putter and it is more often than not due to #1.

Blake_T wrote:
But with the wrist only going from slightly closed to neutral and his hand not seeming to ever actually get behind the disc I got confused.


think about it this way. if the wrist goes from closed to neutral and then abruptly stops there will be forced transferred to the disc and it will jump off of the hand.

if you get down both releases with a high level of proficiency you can basically mimic anyone's putt and figure out what makes it work. what you really gain a feel for isn't anything you can see in a video.


Thanks Blake. I took this advice from you a while ago and have been trying to mimic and learn different styles. I have definitely picked some things up here and there from the different styles. I think I am currently doing the equivalent of half-hitting it with my finger spring, which makes me very inconsistent.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Torg » Mon Aug 30, 2010 4:49 pm

Blake_T wrote:the problem that most people have is that they focus on the wrong differences and fail to see the similarities. like, focusing on 2 batters who have different batting stances but nearly identical swings. people want to state they are different because their stances are different. similarly, they won't see 2 batters with identical stances but completely different swings as being different.



Having coached a few very good batters the interesting differences you see in swings are mainly in the early part of the swing and have almost everything to do with timing. Follow through is mostly comfort. Almost every great hitter hits the same points during the swing. I'd expect that disc golf driving styles isn't much differnt. It probably boils down to a few key spots in the throw that the vast majority of great drivers hit. I am anxiously awaiting working on your new methods.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Blake_T » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:25 pm

I am a mediocre putter and it is more often than not due to #1.


the entire foundation of the short arm putt is meant to reduce #1 down to as low as humanly possible. for me #1 is about 10-20% of my misses, with 80-90% being mis-aiming or improperly compensating for wind.

Thanks Blake. I took this advice from you a while ago and have been trying to mimic and learn different styles. I have definitely picked some things up here and there from the different styles. I think I am currently doing the equivalent of half-hitting it with my finger spring, which makes me very inconsistent.


once you get a feeling for the magic release it becomes incredibly easy to mimic other putters. as i said, there's only 2 ways to release the disc. everything that happens before the release is simply the means of powering. each means of powering has its own set of relative strengths and weaknesses. e.g. incredibly long range but lots of technique failure misses vs. range limited but very consistent and wind neutral.

the release in itself can be evaluated but honestly, when it comes to "great putters" i've only seen a handful of slide putters that i would call great. most great putters are spring/push putters. i peaked in the ~72-74% range from 30' with a slide release during my summer of 100k putts. my spring/push putting style peaked in the 90-93% range.

Having coached a few very good batters the interesting differences you see in swings are mainly in the early part of the swing and have almost everything to do with timing. Follow through is mostly comfort. Almost every great hitter hits the same points during the swing. I'd expect that disc golf driving styles isn't much differnt. It probably boils down to a few key spots in the throw that the vast majority of great drivers hit. I am anxiously awaiting working on your new methods.


very very very true. my "final" swing (when i had the best power of my baseball career) was almost silly and pitchers would think i was showing them up. i basically held the handle of the bat on my right hip with the bat barrel pointing mostly up and slightly back and stood almost straight up and down. no step, no big wind back (although i had a slight cocking of the handle as the pitch was coming in). i knew a few guys that had nearly identical swings to me but they often had super bent knees, the bat barrel way behind their head, huge step and lunge, etc. if you broke down the point of contact and power zone for driving the ball we were pretty much identical but hardly anyone could see that since our stances and timing mechanisms were VERY different.

the biggest similarity with disc golf and batting happens during the follow through imo. i was mainly a line drive hitter but when i wanted to uncork a moonball (either going for a short fence or a long sac fly) i would adjust the weight of my swing and my style of follow through to add some backspin, lean a little if i wanted to pull the ball, etc. disc has the same implications. with very good players you can see what they were trying to do with the shot based upon their body behavior AFTER the release. a roller is a key example of this. if you ever watch a distance contest you can tell which discs will flip and ride turned beyond the apex and which ones will stall based upon the post release body mechanics.

the whole meat of it is is that each of the 3 styles have slightly different body positions at the key points. swedish styled throwers tend to have low pull lines without a lot of elbow bend. carolina style throwers are very "elbow forward". lagged arm have a lagged arm. the same principles in timing and flow apply to all. that is the one major truth. acceleration > lack of acceleration. strong grip > slip grip. etc.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:19 pm

I am very happy to say that, after a bunch of work, I finally have a decent feel for finger spring. There's still very little going on in terms of a palm push, but I have the finger spring! After using it to practice Blake's short arm putt a bunch I tried to emulate some other styles. Thanks to finger spring and some better understanding of timing I was able to finally emulate Nikko's putt, which simply wasn't working for me at all with my slip release. I also was able to emulate a proper short-arm version of Doss' putt, where I had always long-armed it before.

I still can't get Feldberg's putt to work for me, but I think it requires a bit more of a shoulder thrust/pop than I have been giving it.

Happy day.

Thanks Blake and MB for hitting me with enough different ways to picture/feel finger spring that I was finally able to connect the dots.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby JHern » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:38 pm

Thanks from me too, Blake. My game has improved dramatically since discovering this site. I can now get myself inside the circle on most holes up to 360'-370'...

...But my putting is so bad these days that I'm picking up about 10 extra strokes on a typical round of 18 (i.e., missing the vast majority of my 15'+ putts...even occasionally from 12'!). Since I'm typically shooting 1-2 over par in this present state (owing entirely to the control of my drives), it means that I can get down to -9--8 if I could just develop a putting game...and that's competitive.

In any case, I am definitely getting finger spring and palm push, but very inconsistent. I was hitting too low previously, and then added spring/palm to get it back up to the correct height. But then, when I feel the palm push strongest, I make a beautiful throw at the perfect height very clean and miss exactly 2-3' to the right of the chains. Every. Friggin. Time. This really sucks. People say "hey man, just aim left." Sure, easier said than done! When I try that I then miss left or maybe sometimes make it into the chains, but shooting less than 20% from 15'+ is horrible by any standard.

So basically, I hit low if I relax and don't give it a lot of spring/palm, but right down the center. If I do a stronger spring/palm then I lose my left-right aim, but I have the right height/distance. My putters are always coming out with a nice flat release, no hyzer, flat nose, no wobble. This should be a killer release (and very wind-resistant), if I could only learn to aim it!
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby JR » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:05 pm

Try laser line putts at close ranges. Raise the arm straight at the sweet spot of the basket and aim like Doss visually across the top of the disc along the center of the disc. That height in the arm and disc lowers the power generation needs so the disc won't fly by so far in case of a miss and also won't bounce off the pole as easily. And you've got the disc at about the correct height already so you don't have to aim for height at shorter ranges at all. There's one variable less to cause misses and it is huge in make rates.

Once you've aimed pull back the arm so that the muscles are loose and let the looseness be your focus even though you try to move the disc back in a straight line. Eventually with practice you'll get both at the same time repeatably. From the same motion you move the disc forward once you've reached close to the chest with the disc. Because you were already focused on the right spot in the basket your aiming should be ok and after that you focused on the arm muscle looseness so you should be loose in the arm moving the disc forward. That is half of the victory. The other half and you know it is the late acceleration.

The reasons for late acceleration aren't always repeated so here goes: That will allow a clean release with an abrupt finger spring clearing the fingers with the disc fast, aiming with the weight of the disc and getting mechanical feedback in the muscles of the arm giving you the feeling everything is moving in a straight line toward the sweet spot. It all goes haywire if you straighten your elbow because like Newton pointed out there's momentum. And it moves down the path of least resistance which is to turn your wrist right of neutral and voilá you've got a right miss. Biomechanics suggests that when you flow like water with the active straightening of the wrist from curled left of straight to almost straight you won't get herky jerky motions. Combined with Newton above it means you absolutely must avoid straightening the elbow and do the active wrist motion from left to a few degrees left of neutral. That wrist motion must complete before the elbow straightens and it works in unison with the acceleration of the elbow straightening motion to double the late acceleration rate of acceleration.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby JHern » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:44 am

JR wrote:Try laser line putts at close ranges. Raise the arm straight at the sweet spot of the basket and aim like Doss visually across the top of the disc along the center of the disc. That height in the arm and disc lowers the power generation needs so the disc won't fly by so far in case of a miss and also won't bounce off the pole as easily. And you've got the disc at about the correct height already so you don't have to aim for height at shorter ranges at all. There's one variable less to cause misses and it is huge in make rates....


Yeah, I have to come up with a way of aiming, which I do not have at all. Also, I think I'm long-arming my putts, and letting my elbow open too far, and this is what is creating the left-right scatter in my throws. I need to start working seriously on a short-arm-like adjustment, similar to the one Blake advocates, and take that degree of freedom out of the equation.

I also need to practice. A lot. In my frustration, I finally picked up a portable basket, and I intend to wear it out. I'm also going to try Mark Ellis' program of 2X15min/dayX30days of making putts.

This is going to work, dammit!
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby mark12b » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:31 am

yah, it's easy to yank it right when you're trying to put more behind it... working on the shortest-possible stroke will help a lot. first figure out how far out you can be with a straight, super-short pop from the belt buckle (15 -20' or whatever), then when you move back, keep that same pop but add some hip thrust (instead of arm extension) to give it more force.

one visualization that helped me with aiming is to think of the hand as moving around the disc in space... say your initial grip is at 1:30 and your release/palm-push is at 4:30. you want the disc to be moving in a straight line, which means you've got to get the hand out of the way when it's at 3:00. so, there's a subtle l-to-r-to-l movement of the hand as the wrist moves from closed to neutral to open.

and yes, thanks to blake and everyone else on here who's so helpful.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby JHern » Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:21 am

Progress report: so far so good. Now making everything within 20'. I'm not going to stop, though. Blake's analogy of this being like throwing a dart is helping tremendously, in terms of feel for the mechanics. I don't even think of it, and just spring from my fingers and into the chains, and it seems to work great. I think getting this feeling has required me to shorten my stroke some, which is a good case for letting feel guide form.

I also want to work on banging long approaches, but maybe I should instead focus on laying those shots up, until I get my putting rhythm entirely back? I don't know.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:44 pm

JHern wrote:Progress report: so far so good. Now making everything within 20'. I'm not going to stop, though. Blake's analogy of this being like throwing a dart is helping tremendously, in terms of feel for the mechanics. I don't even think of it, and just spring from my fingers and into the chains, and it seems to work great. I think getting this feeling has required me to shorten my stroke some, which is a good case for letting feel guide form.

I also want to work on banging long approaches, but maybe I should instead focus on laying those shots up, until I get my putting rhythm entirely back? I don't know.


I've been working on my Blake-TM short-arm putt and am doing great with it in the 0-20' range. Once I work on my putts beyond that my form starts breaking down and when I move back to below the 20' range, it is hard to find my good form again. I have been working on using a distinctly different putt beyond 20' or so feet and before any sort of jump putt range.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby JHern » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:58 am

josser wrote:I've been working on my Blake-TM short-arm putt and am doing great with it in the 0-20' range. Once I work on my putts beyond that my form starts breaking down and when I move back to below the 20' range, it is hard to find my good form again. I have been working on using a distinctly different putt beyond 20' or so feet and before any sort of jump putt range.


I'm in the exact same boat. I think a lot of my problems also have to do with my body attempting to blend a single kind of form over too large a range of distances, kind of like I do for changing up power between longer mid-range throws up to full power drives. I do this without thinking, but I think I need to think about it.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Blake_T » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:25 am

there's 2 types of misses:
1. mis-aiming
2. technique breakdown

missing with #2 sucks.
missing with #1 sucks but not as badly as missing with #2.

different practice regimens are needed to focus on each of these. early stages of putt training should be focused on #2. later stages of putt training (after you have a solid stroke) should be keyed on #1.

while working on #2, you have a couple of ranges to find:
a. your maximum static range. this is how far your putts travel with a stationary position and no weight shift.
b. your maximum range with weight shift.
c. your maximum jump putt range.

the key here is the definition of "maximum." maximum = the farthest you can while maintaining good mechanics. at some point trying to force the disc farther will cause the technique to break down.

my short arm technique on a flat, nose neutral putt, tends to have some range limits that are as follows:
(a) is in the realm of 18-22'
(b) is in the realm of 28-38'

putter model, wear, and weight have a lot to do with the ranges of a and b. newer, stable, heavy putters will shorten the range. lighter, beat in, less stable putters will lengthen the range.

nose up will increase range. nose down will decrease range. hyzer and anhyzer will increase range.

the key is to balance things out. if you use too flippy of a putter you will be murdered by the wind. if you putt nose up you will be murdered by the wind. if you putt nose down you'll pull up short in many situations. hyzer and anhyzer add variables to aiming.

i use a different putting stroke under 14'. i use my standard putting stroke from 15' and out. my "money" range is up to ~25' before things start dropping off.

at some point you have to decide what is paramount to you. personally i value hitting every putt i "should" make over making a higher percentage from outside 40'. i like wind neutrality, etc.

at some point you will make those decisions and your equipment choices, putting stances, and the means of powering the stroke will reflect those decisions. although i do meet quite a few people who just listened to what other people said and have no reason to be using what they use nor putting how they putt.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby josser » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:16 pm

Blake_T wrote:there's 2 types of misses:
1. mis-aiming
2. technique breakdown

missing with #2 sucks.
missing with #1 sucks but not as badly as missing with #2.

...

while working on #2, you have a couple of ranges to find:
a. your maximum static range. this is how far your putts travel with a stationary position and no weight shift.
b. your maximum range with weight shift.
c. your maximum jump putt range.

...

my short arm technique on a flat, nose neutral putt, tends to have some range limits that are as follows:
(a) is in the realm of 18-22'
(b) is in the realm of 28-38'


My 20(ish)' max is for (a). Part of my problem with getting further than that is that I seem to have some timing problems with weight shift and the short-arm putt. With the earlier release, it seems like I can't get the timing matched up. I can start with my weight on my front foot and kick my back foot out a little, but that's the biggest weight-shift I seem to be able to manage (timing-wise) with the short-arm style. As soon as I try to shift from back to front the timing goes wonky.

With a long-arm putt, I have no real problem getting a nice big front-to-back weight shift.

I guess I just need to spend more time in the lab trying to get the timing right for the bigger weight-shift with the short-arm. My current stop-gap method of using a completely different putting style for each of (a), (b) and (c) will have to do while I get these things sorted out.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby mark12b » Tue Sep 14, 2010 7:47 pm

How about this for a weight-shift drill: Make a fist. Put a disc upside-down on your fist. Lock your elbow at your side. Lock the wrist too. Now the goal is to make the disc go into the basket just by using weight shift. You can thrust from the hips, spring up from bent knees, skateboard-kick, whatever. The goal is control more than distance -- you want that disc flying toward the basket. Distance will come when you add the regular (a) part of the putt back in.
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Re: Thanks Blake for tons of hard work

Postby Blake_T » Tue Sep 14, 2010 9:01 pm

shift first, then putt.
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