Please help fix my drive

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Please help fix my drive

Postby Itchy » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:58 pm

I'm a solid 250' RHBH thrower looking to get out to about 350' so I've been reading and practicing 'Maxing Out @ 300ft...' and 'The "Incomplete" Secret Technique'. When I crack JHern's whip or backhand Blake_T's hammer I ALWAYS soar the disc sky high. So either I x-step and fling with my arm going 250' or I crack the whip/hammer and get the nose up and end up with the disk stalling out and fading back toward me and only going about 180'. That's the wrong direction! Plus when I practice cracking the whip for a while I'll end up with a sore rear deltoid in my right shoulder so I think I'm pulling something leading me to think I'm throwing wrong. Or maybe I'm just working a muscle that doesn't normally get a lot of use, I'm not sure. I did a search for "nose up" and the only thing I found that might help (in 387 pages!) is a suggestion to throw a putter into the wind. But that post left me with another question... what does OAT mean? Is there a page with all these acronyms and terms on it? That'd be a great read too. If this has been covered a link to the thread would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by Itchy on Sun Sep 05, 2010 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby Star Shark » Sat Sep 04, 2010 2:42 am

OAT = Off Axis Torque. Typically causes massive turnover when the disc shouldn't flip like that.

I notice when people try to kill it that they take a huge plant step. Keep it reasonably short. You don't want to really throw all that high in the first place. 5-10 degrees above horizontal is all you really need unless you're doing something special.
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby Itchy » Sat Sep 04, 2010 10:20 am

So OAT is that wobblie stuff when the disc leaves your hand? I had noticed that but wasn't sure how bad it was or what caused it. The disc seemed to fix itself, but I guess it still causes you to loose distance and accuracy. Maybe just slow down my throw and baby step my way up to more torque? Also I'll practice a smaller finally step in my x-step. Thank you Sharkie.

EDIT
Knew I'd seen this somewhere... a link to help get nose down if anybody else is having problems with this.
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources/articles/gripittoripit.shtml#ripvslock
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby Dr. Burd » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:30 pm

"Wobblie stuff" does not equal OAT.
OAT is generally rolling your wrist over when you throw, but can occur a few different ways.

As for your original post, everything you're describing suggests to me that you're trying too hard / too tense / strong-arming / etc.

Get your weight forward. Practice throwing from a standstill for awhile and don't worry about how far they go - look for FAST, smooth, & clean releases. Don't put any effort into pulling or throwing the disc AT ALL. Barely grip the disc until it's out in front of your body (to your right, toward the target). Your arm should be completely relaxed - no tension in your forearm at all.
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby krik72 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 11:17 am

X-post from your thread in equipment, see if people agree with me :).

If you are throwing 280' you are trying to move up to the 300'-360' range. Major issues would be, nose down flight (stall outs), flight path (accidental turn and burns or hyzers that hold to the ground), too fast discs (not flipping flat with your power) or perhaps not enough height. I dont think you need to drive putters to learn this, I tried this when I was trying to add distance and all I learned was how to throw putters almost as far my drivers but still capped out at the same distance with my drivers.

Heres what I did to cross this threshold:
-Get a disc that I can easily overpower assuming no wind (for you this is a DX Leopoard, DX Cheetah, maybe DX Sidewinder and it absolutely must be *DX*)
-Release with a significant hyzer of at least 30 degrees
-Really focus on having your weight on your front foot and putting your power into the 30 degree hyzer angle, this is really a visualization thing and doesnt need to be perfect at all

The point of all this is to flip your disc up to flat and into a slight turn that ends in a *nose down* fade. This means absolutely no stall out, your disc should continue to fly forwardish into the ground. I find this nose down flight is easiest to accomplish initially releasing with a large hyzer but that may make it harder to flip flat so experiment, if you are having trouble getting enough power to flip flat but cant the nose down without the large hyzer release try throwing into a headwind, the point is you need to feel it once or twice and then you will "get it."

This should get you out to about 340'-360' of nice controlled power and 360'-380' on a distance line.

The next steps up in power level would be (with no wind):
-DX Valk
-DX TeeBird
-P-PD

Remember a headwind makes discs easier to flip up and a tailwind makes it harder.

Another random thought, I remember it really clicking for me when I threw a disc that would turn and burn for me at 20' of height with 40' of height and watching the full turnover barely flex out at the end flight path. Adding height I think is the easiest adjustment particularly when you are releasing hyzer you just sort of adjust your pull on a bit higher diagonal as if you would be pointing higher at the end of your rip if that makes sense.
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby Itchy » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:21 pm

Yeah, I posted in equipment too looking for which discs are least forgiving when thrown with poor snap/nose up. I'm really willing to try just about anything to get my drive to where it should be.

Things I'll be trying:
Concentrate more on my grip and keeping my wrist turned down. Also keeping my forearm relaxed, weight forward and slow down (more along the lines of the whip than the hammer?).

1) I'll try getting a heavier Shark to fly a straight line
2) I'll try to flip over my DX Leopard on a heavy hyzer (If I get this to work, what do I change to make it fly straight without going nose up)
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby krik72 » Sun Sep 05, 2010 2:22 pm

A lot discs are going to "fly straight" by flipping it up from a hyzer release as this reduces how much it will fade, releasing a disc flat and not turning it over will usually result in a good amount of early fade. Releasing flat isnt necessarily desirable, Id say I throw the majority of my drives on a hyzer release.

The flinging the hammer and snapping the towel have to do with "hitting it" which in my personal opinion isnt that relevant until you are making a disc fly correctly meaning no stall outs (unless you meant to!). I dont think I "hit it" at all and I can throw a controlled 350'.
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby masterbeato » Sun Sep 05, 2010 10:54 pm

snap it lower.

and/or lower your pull line underneath your pecs.
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby Itchy » Mon Sep 06, 2010 6:07 pm

I thought the big explosion of speed was supposed to be the disc going from your right pec out to the snap? So it's OK to bring that down lower? Also, Mr Beto, in your video I see your follow through has you going to your right. I've noticed after I throw I end up taking a step or two forward. Any idea why/is this bad?
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby JR » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:15 pm

Itchy wrote:I thought the big explosion of speed was supposed to be the disc going from your right pec out to the snap? So it's OK to bring that down lower? Also, Mr Beto, in your video I see your follow through has you going to your right. I've noticed after I throw I end up taking a step or two forward. Any idea why/is this bad?


Many people get the best results from right pec acceleration but there is a 600' thrower here that pulls close to the left side and far off right and starts to accelerate from about the left side. Height of the pull doesn't mean that you couldn't pull either way. Close to the right pec means inches away from the chest sideways. Not up or down. The idea is to plyometrically load the arm muscles by bending the elbow tight. Which occurs when you get the disc tight to your body when it passes your torso.

World distance record holder Christian Sandström is making a DVD about throwing far. In a taster clip on Youtube he speaks his native Swedish and says that you should have an equal length and rotation plant step and the follow through step to maintain balance. So you reach back 180 from the target in the x step and turn 90 degrees for the plant step, throw and follow through another 90 degrees with the left leg chest facing 90 degrees left of the target and stop. IIRC he suggested the plant and follow through steps are just a little wider than your shoulder width.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby Itchy » Thu Sep 09, 2010 11:38 am

Slow down + weight forward + hyzer Leopard = worked

I went out Tuesday and Wednesday and practiced. The heavier Shark is still in the mail, so I didn't get to try that but Wednesday the Leopard went 330' three throws in a row and it feels like it wants to go further because I wasn't putting 100% into any of those throws. That's 50' to 60' further in about 72 hours of practice; you guys are good!

I tried lowering my throw below my pec but it felt super awkward in my shoulder/elbow. I'll slow that down and keep trying.

I'm guessing the problem was timing causing me to not get good snap on my throw. I'll slowly keep speeding it up until I get to 100% power, but if I hit 350' accurately I'll be happy because then I have a chance to birdie at Waller Park as long as I can stay away from the trees. 400' is still my dream goal.

Thanks EVERYBODY on this forum! :D
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby Dr. Burd » Thu Sep 09, 2010 1:04 pm

Itchy wrote:I tried lowering my throw below my pec but it felt super awkward in my shoulder/elbow. I'll slow that down and keep trying.


Don't force this too much. Your body positions / pull line will not be identical to anyone else - everyone is shaped differently. There's a fine line between awkward and damaging.

If you're experiencing pain or discomfort in your shoulder/elbow, stop throwing that way before you wreck yourself and try something different! =)
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Re: Please help fix my drive

Postby krik72 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:26 pm

Itchy wrote:Slow down + weight forward + hyzer Leopard = worked

I went out Tuesday and Wednesday and practiced. The heavier Shark is still in the mail, so I didn't get to try that but Wednesday the Leopard went 330' three throws in a row and it feels like it wants to go further because I wasn't putting 100% into any of those throws. That's 50' to 60' further in about 72 hours of practice; you guys are good!

I tried lowering my throw below my pec but it felt super awkward in my shoulder/elbow. I'll slow that down and keep trying.

I'm guessing the problem was timing causing me to not get good snap on my throw. I'll slowly keep speeding it up until I get to 100% power, but if I hit 350' accurately I'll be happy because then I have a chance to birdie at Waller Park as long as I can stay away from the trees. 400' is still my dream goal.

Thanks EVERYBODY on this forum! :D

Woot good work Itchy :)
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