FH Driving Wizards

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FH Driving Wizards

Postby Mike C » Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:00 pm

I'm pretty new to FH throws so sorry if this sounds noob, but is there any real limit to how far one can throw a FH with a Wizard? I've heard a lot of people say you need over stable discs to handle the snap of a high powered FH throw but that never made sense to me since more spin stabilizes a disc's flight? So I figured if I learned clean form and threw with a hyzer release, I should be able to throw Wizards full power FH and not flip them. Is this correct?
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby curt » Fri Oct 01, 2010 11:02 pm

I know guys who can flick ultra-stars three hundred feet, so anything you heard about understable discs not being able to hand a FH throw is nonsense.*

In case readers are unaware, an ultra-star is a lid most commonly used for playing ultimate frisbee, and is very unforgiving of any imperfection in form.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby Mark Ellis » Sat Oct 02, 2010 12:02 am

Mike C wrote:I'm pretty new to FH throws so sorry if this sounds noob, but is there any real limit to how far one can throw a FH with a Wizard? I've heard a lot of people say you need over stable discs to handle the snap of a high powered FH throw but that never made sense to me since more spin stabilizes a disc's flight? So I figured if I learned clean form and threw with a hyzer release, I should be able to throw Wizards full power FH and not flip them. Is this correct?



It is an interesting question.

I am a forehander with some experience and cannot throw the putters or mids in my bag at full power without flipping them. I haven't actually tried using a very overstable mid ( like a Drone or something similar) at full power.

I have always been jealous of my backhanding buddies who can launch putters and mids. I have been gradually expanding my range over the years with practice but on forehand throws my comfort range for Rattlers is about 100 feet, for Magnets about 150 feet and for Buzzz's about 240 feet. With a tailwind or downhill a bit farther and with a headwind or uphill less.

The initial flutter generated by my forehand throw flips over putters and mids if I throw them too hard (some very understable drivers, too). The less flutter in the release of the disc, the less turnover caused and the more torque the disc can handle. So if a player could develop a flutter-free forehand release they could throw putters very far (400 feet or whatever, the range you see big arm backhanders throw putters). I don't know of any player who can do this but I have never put this question to my buddies who throw forehands well (like a Geoff Bennett or Mike Raley).

The greater advantage than distance to developing a flutter-free (or flutter diminished) release would be handling headwinds. In screaming headwinds, forehands are very difficult to control (even much, much more so than backhands). When the winds get strong enough, on headwind shots I put away my putters and mids and switch to overstable drivers (like a Crush or a Force or a Z Nuke). Even in moderately strong headwinds I will ramp up to overstable mids like Wasps or Zones or Drones.

If anyone else has figured out how to throw a flutter-free forehand I would love to hear how they do it.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby JR » Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:23 am

This is gonna sound heretical because Mark has made a FH instructional vid that was slightly useful for me because many things there were familiar for me. But for others it may have been immensely useful. I was like Gaaaah!!!!! when mafa watched my drives BH and comented that they were fluttering and I was like no way. I didn't see flutter but you can't see initial flight right yourself. I was not pushing the elbow forward for a year after locking the elbow bent for a while then violently having the momentum forcing the elbow open killing my elbow area hurting like mofakka. Shoulder too. Then I reread form flaw corrections from the main page and ran into a comment by Blake that said something like not having the elbow forward having the arm straight tends to magnify fluttering. No shit could mafa comment based on watching me then :twisted:

So seeing how Mark drives with the racquet ball kill shot FH with a fairly straight arm in the end of the arm swing in the Discraft instructional video for FH throwing it may make it more difficult to have flutter free throws. Even though they may feel fine for the thrower.

I don't drive very cleanly with putters because the not understable one tend to be too tall for my small hands. At least far so I can't give any definite answers to some D being great for analysis tool. I'd think that reaching the same D FH than BH with any disc is more of an achievement and 250' being the minimum safe bet BH for a Wiz not fluttering and turning over that would be a great indicator for a FH Wiz drive.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby jubuttib » Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:13 pm

If we are to trust Mr. Monster himself (Ville Piippo, often but not currently the worlds highest ranking pure FH player) FH throws simply don't generate the same kind of spin that BH can, which means that when you start to get the disc speed up you're going to need something more HSS, 'cause you won't be able to get the same spin to stabilize the disc.

That said I think the actual limit is fairly high, as proven by Ultimate players. A clean forehand form can definitely push a putter way out there, but it's going to be hard to get a form as clean as that.

BTW: I've always found it funny how people suggest discs like XCaliber etc. as good FH discs when beginners ask. Especially if they come from an Ultimate background, I think they'd be much better off with even Leopards and other more understable discs, because they usually have a very clean FH form.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby FierceTable » Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:28 pm

I'll agree with jubuttib. The lower spin potential means all discs will have a greater propensity to turn over even when thrown with a clean release. I think with putters in particular it can be very difficult to release them cleanly due to their generally deeper core. In addition to having more of your finger in the disc some putters have a stepped or tapered core where your supporting finger (if you use a stacked grip) can be considerably less stacked and higher up in the disc. I can't get a consistent rip on forehand throws with putters due to the deep rim/core. The only way I've found to combat this is to actually release the disc rather than letting it rip from my hand and clearly letting go loses plenty of power versus letting it rip from your hand.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby Thatdirtykid » Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:18 pm

I use a really loose grip when I flick putters and lids. I kind of let the disc launch off my finger like a spring and flatten itself. Very little pressure with my thumb.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby superdrive » Sun Oct 03, 2010 5:47 am

''Full power'' doesn't really mean anything. Do you mean snap as hard as you can? If you can snap them with clean form you're already pushing them close to 250. I'm 100% sure there are guys who can flick Wizards 330+.

Couple months ago I went from 230-240 to 270-280 and 300 isn't impossible even for me (I don't play ultimate).
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby Mike C » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:33 pm

For the record I'm currently BH driving Wizards to 350-360'. FH I'm still new to as I stated, only getting about 200' out of them. I was just wondering what the opinions on more experienced FH players were, whether the "increased spin" thing is true or not. The ultimate example is good, and I will watch some ultimate youtube clips and maybe steal some form ideas from the players...

From my modest FH experience I see no reason why I can't flick a wizard as far as I can BH it. I played with a very experienced FH player recently who showed me shoulder down = hyzer release, which is a simple but effective example of what I might be doing wrong. I hadn't thought of positioning my shoulders like that to get a better hyzer release.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby StumperTX » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:48 am

Mike C wrote:For the record I'm currently BH driving Wizards to 350-360'. FH I'm still new to as I stated, only getting about 200' out of them. I was just wondering what the opinions on more experienced FH players were, whether the "increased spin" thing is true or not. The ultimate example is good, and I will watch some ultimate youtube clips and maybe steal some form ideas from the players...

From my modest FH experience I see no reason why I can't flick a wizard as far as I can BH it. I played with a very experienced FH player recently who showed me shoulder down = hyzer release, which is a simple but effective example of what I might be doing wrong. I hadn't thought of positioning my shoulders like that to get a better hyzer release.

I throw FH with distance discs in and around 400 ft, with my longer throws going 430-440 based on disc golf course review hole lengths.

I don't carry a Wizard, but I do carry a voodoo (which is just a touch more stable). I cannot throw it with the same grip/technique as I do my max distance discs -- I use a split grip, with only one finger on the rim with my putters. Again, using disc golf course review hole lengths, I can throw about 260-270ft FH with the Voodoo. I'm sure they're people out there that can get more D out of them than I can though, so ymmv. Putters are the only thing I can throw farther BH than FH, because I just don't trust my snap to not flip the disc FH
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby A buzzz and a beer » Mon Nov 22, 2010 11:36 am

Man... now im gonna have to go to the field later today or tomarrow and see how far I can FH a wizard. I am guessing on a realistic line(for a shot in a round) would max at about 250. If I went for pure distance it might get close to 300. In that case I would be putting it on a high anyhyzer line and let it come back a little (although im not sure if it would at that power and distance).

I played ultimate for about 5+ years before I started seriously playing disc golf. I always threw more forehands, and could put an ultimate disc the length of a field which is 70 yards(on an anhyzer line). So when I throw a forehand in disc golf I don't really think about how I throw it. I even tell my friend who use to play ultimate to just rip it and not think about it. The hardest thing for me to do when coming to disc golf forehands was to figure out footing when driving.

My best advice would be to get the flick action down. This is just the wrist motion. In ultimate and disc golf the biggest problem I see people having is they try to throw too much arm into forehands. Once you get a standstill, with not much arm, going a good distance and not fluttering then you can work in putting more arm and a run up into it.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby dejavu22 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 8:25 pm

This actually slightly hits on the reason that i looked for this board in the first place. I am a primary forehand player and lately i have been getting disgusted because it seems like i have hit a wall distance wise at about 350 with my 174 flick and about 330 with my 150 flick. I don't believe i have any initial release flutter and i am able to throw it pretty much any flight path i want to. I also have a champion orc but i use it as a mid-range disc for when i only want to throw it like 100-200. I have tried to let loose on it a few times but due to flipping it over like 20% of the time i just don't even try to crank on it anymore. What i am trying to find out is if there is a disc that can handle a flick but actually has some glide because most of the time when i throw my flicks for distance they turn so hard at the end that i feel like i'm giving up about 150 feet as they beat themselves into the ground.

Any suggestions for other discs to try?

I also have a predator that i only use when i really want to hold a line but i really cant throw it for any reasonable distance.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby Whiz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 9:47 pm

Try a Wraith or Surge. Both discs are similar but I just happen to throw the Wraith. They both have a lot more glide than your Flicks. IMO, the Flick is NOT a very good disc for Forehand, with the possible exception of skip shots and such. I would recommend a Star or Champ Wraith or a Z-Surge. For distance Geoff Bennett throws ESP Forces and Jeremy Koling throws Z-Surges or Nukes. They are two of the top FH throwers so that should give you an idea of what is needed.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby garublador » Tue Feb 22, 2011 8:04 am

Mike C wrote:So I figured if I learned clean form and threw with a hyzer release, I should be able to throw Wizards full power FH and not flip them. Is this correct?
I'm not a forehand expert, but from what I've seen that's totally correct.

IMO all of this spin nonsense people talk about with forehand isn't nearly as big of a deal as people think, especially with slower (less gyroscopic) discs. I think that Mark is right on the money with his assumption that OAT (flutter) is the real reason people turn over discs when they throw forehand.

Mark, have you done the hammer pound drills? If not they might be worth checking out to help eliminate some of that OAT.
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Re: FH Driving Wizards

Postby dejavu22 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 10:44 pm

Whiz wrote:Try a Wraith or Surge. Both discs are similar but I just happen to throw the Wraith. They both have a lot more glide than your Flicks. IMO, the Flick is NOT a very good disc for Forehand, with the possible exception of skip shots and such. I would recommend a Star or Champ Wraith or a Z-Surge. For distance Geoff Bennett throws ESP Forces and Jeremy Koling throws Z-Surges or Nukes. They are two of the top FH throwers so that should give you an idea of what is needed.


Ok i will have to try one of these later. Before i posted here i put a bid and apparently won, a champion boss on ebay so i will wait to see how that one plays as well. Then just go out to a field and toss em all around and learn them. Although i must admit if i do that i may pick up a champion groove aswell.
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