Lift

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Lift

Postby fanter » Sun Oct 03, 2010 3:53 pm

I've read in various places (don't ask me to cite my sources because I don't remember them) that sometimes a disc needs more height from the ground in order to get a "full flight." Most specifically, I think I remember hearing it about a Teebird. I'm wondering where the "lift" comes from to get a disc up into the air to achieve the most of its flight. Is it a function of my arm or the orientation of the disc?

Mind you, my best drives come in somewhere around 350', so my primary issue is probably not this lift business. It's more a question of curiosity.
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Re: Lift

Postby fanter » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:34 pm

Maybe I should also say that I'm not throwing TB's myself. That was just one about which I'd heard needing a certain amount of height. I usually drive an ESP Pred/Champ Wraith/Z Wasp. Their flights are all relatively low to the ground, usually, when I throw them.
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Re: Lift

Postby Star Shark » Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:27 pm

Slower discs will go roughly as far as the big distance disc but the slower it is, the more height it needs. There's footage of Beto on YouTube throwing a CE TB 500' but it has to be a ways up there <50' iirc>.
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Re: Lift

Postby jubuttib » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:50 pm

The height comes from throwing the disc high up in the air. Try to throw a putter far and you'll quickly notice how much higher you need to aim to get it to go anywhere. It can be very difficult to manage this without giving the disc massive nose up though.
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Re: Lift

Postby JR » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:31 am

A disc released hyzer tends to rise a lot if it has speed as long as it is hyzer. And maybe a bit afterward from the rising momentum. If you gain 30-50' in distance most discs start to behave quite differently and want to rise a lot even when the front of the disc is as high as the rear. Having to nose up exaggerates the rising and nose up head winds terribly much more. Nose up throws tend to stall and be short.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Lift

Postby fanter » Mon Oct 04, 2010 2:59 pm

Is achieving altitude, but with the nose down, something I should try to do to gain distance? Or is it, like you seem to be saying, JR, a RESULT of having more D?
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Re: Lift

Postby garublador » Mon Oct 04, 2010 3:44 pm

fanter wrote:Is achieving altitude, but with the nose down, something I should try to do to gain distance? Or is it, like you seem to be saying, JR, a RESULT of having more D?
IMO it's both.

The easiest ways to throw higher and nose down without gaining power are to throw not flat (it's easier with hyzers and anhyzers) and to just aim higher than before.
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Re: Lift

Postby JR » Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:55 am

garublador wrote:
fanter wrote:Is achieving altitude, but with the nose down, something I should try to do to gain distance? Or is it, like you seem to be saying, JR, a RESULT of having more D?
IMO it's both.

The easiest ways to throw higher and nose down without gaining power are to throw not flat (it's easier with hyzers and anhyzers) and to just aim higher than before.


True. You can simulate what having the disc at a high apex diving down front lower than the rear with a flat throw (maximum glide/speed ratio thus distance) by throwingt from a hill under the height you're at.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Lift

Postby fanter » Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:07 pm

Interesting. Thanks! I'll see what sort of results I can get when I find time to get myself out to the course.
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Re: Lift

Postby Thatdirtykid » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:03 pm

Older discs required more height as stated. People are not learning as much about nose angles on drives as before. Faster discs are nose angle sensitive, but do not need to be thrown as high to achieve distance. I used to throw sabres 400' but they needed to be high and after one of my breaks (unwilling) I never got the hang of throwing that nose down again.

The best way to work on it is the bottom up. Learn to throw putters high and far, then try to do mids, fairway drivers and then eventually distance drivers. You will find it easier to do this with the slower discs as they are not as sensitive to nose angle, so when you move up to another disc work it until you are getting it the same height you were getting the putters.
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Re: Lift

Postby masterbeato » Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:43 pm

for people with big snap the disc gets a natural lift and air bounces from 15' of height, to 30' or 35' of height and then pops nose down at its peak. very different from just aiming high.

on distance throws when people want to go 90' in the air, they are generally aiming 65' to 75' in the air and let their snap propel the disc an extra 20' up.

IMO, learn to throw cyclones far, because you can throw a putter far without really focusing on nose angle because they can fly well and far nose up vs. a cyclone.

if you can throw a cyclone over 400' that is crushing it!
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Re: Lift

Postby fanter » Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:45 pm

Further question! (Since we've touched on the topic a bit already.)

I don't seem to have issues with high banking nose up throws. However, I haven't yet felt like I'm achieving as much "nose down" as I could. Nor does it look like I'm achieving it. The nose of my disc usually looks more flat than anything. Since I've never really been told HOW to get the nose down, I've come up with a couple things myself.

1) Angle my wrist downward. This is awkward and usually makes for a bad snap. It's also not consistent. My wrist doesn't always want to stay angled and this sometimes results in some botched nose-uppers.

2) Thumb pressure. I've recently changed to a more "pinch"-like grip where my thumb and index finger are basically aligned. I used to have my index and the BASE of my thumb aligned, which allowed me to force the front of the disc downward with my thumb pad. It felt comfortable and like I had a lot of control over my disc but, it made the "rip" of the disc from my hand pretty sloppy, so I ditched it. Now, with my thumb and index together on either side of the disc, I hardly feel the control of the nose the way I did with the previous grip. The snap feels a bit better, though.

I guess I should note that with either grip I've reached about the same distance, so maybe this altitude and nose-down business aren't my primary issues. But it still seems like a good thing to know, so any input will be appreciated. I hope my descriptions were adequate since my access to a camera is nil.
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Re: Lift

Postby Redisculous » Wed Oct 06, 2010 6:00 pm

I was never able to get the nose down until I got the disc pivot thing down. I'm still not great at it, but I'm working on it. JHern did a really good job of describing what I am talking about:

JHern wrote:I get the nose down going into very last part of the rip...I have no idea if it is down before then, but I do know it is afterward. The motion of opening your wrist and slinging the disc forward around your lock finger on the inside rim creates the opportunity you need to get a flat and level release.

Experiment with the way you apply the final grip pressure just before the rip, and you'll find something that gets that nose down for you.


Basically, if you aren't getting the disc to feel heavy and pivot out of the rip, you aren't really going to be able to manipulate the nose angle. I struggled with it for so long, then I got this SEEMINGLY unrelated aspect of the throw to happen and realized that it's a that moment that you are able to manipulate the nose angle etc.... It's just hard to describe.

Also I think getting your weight forward is a type of OAT that makes the nose go down. Since you are moving forward on a horizontal plane, and throwing at slightly upward trajectory, it kind of pushes the nose down, in relation to the plane you are actually thowing on. Just something I've been thinking about lately.
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Re: Lift

Postby MrScoopa » Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:24 am

Basically, if you aren't getting the disc to feel heavy and pivot out of the rip, you aren't really going to be able to manipulate the nose angle. I struggled with it for so long, then I got this SEEMINGLY unrelated aspect of the throw to happen and realized that it's a that moment that you are able to manipulate the nose angle etc.... It's just hard to describe.


For me it is staying buttery loose until I feel the disc start to move in my hand and then pinch down hard at the pivot point. I haven't tried modifying nose angles at that point.


Also I think getting your weight forward is a type of OAT that makes the nose go down. Since you are moving forward on a horizontal plane, and throwing at slightly upward trajectory, it kind of pushes the nose down, in relation to the plane you are actually thowing on. Just something I've been thinking about late


That is a brilliant!
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Re: Lift

Postby garublador » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:56 am

Redisculous wrote:Also I think getting your weight forward is a type of OAT that makes the nose go down. Since you are moving forward on a horizontal plane, and throwing at slightly upward trajectory, it kind of pushes the nose down, in relation to the plane you are actually thowing on. Just something I've been thinking about lately.
I'm totally making this up, so I don't know if it's true or not...

I'm not sure it's OAT imparted on the disc. Think of your body as the Z axis. The Y axis is pointing forward, 90 degrees off of the Z axis. With the disc neutral in your hand and with no OAT about the X axis (the kind that could push the nose down) you need to throw above the Y axis to get the nose down. Upward trajectory with a flat throw gives you nose down. With your weight forward the Z axis is tilted backwards and Y axis points parallel with the ground. With your weight back the Y axis points at an upward angle with respect to the ground. So with the Y axis on an upward angle it's easy to throw below the Y axis and end up with the nose up, even with the help of wrist angle and wrist extension*. The axis probably don't actually work out exactly that way on a real throw, but it's more of the concept I'm trying to get across rather than the literal angles you need.

*I remember talking with Blake about wrist extension once and he had said, IIRC, that wrist extension actually imparts OAT that pushes the nose down.
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