Shoulder pause.

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Shoulder pause.

Postby Redisculous » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:53 pm

A recent conversation with masterbeato has made me realize that I have been being too lazy with my hips. He told me that the hips should be pointing at the target before you start your pull, at the right pec position.

Prior to practicing this I had no problem pausing my shoulders while the disc came across my chest because my hips weren't in position to pull them. IE they would pause because when I came around from reachback they were actually ahead of or square with my hips. Now that I am trying to get my hips around more they want to open too soon.

Is this just a matter of practicing the timing and getting them to pull my upper body to the right of the target at the right time or should I be actively resisting the hip turn with my upper body until the proper time.

Option 2 seems to yield more explosive movements but requires actually tensing the shoulder and upper arm which also seems to also help stop the elbow.. but I've never heard any mention of this on there forums so i thought i would ask.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby Redisculous » Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:59 pm

When I try to actively resist the hips until it is time for the shoulder to open the feel is similar to that of reaching back except my arm is in a different position...

I'm posting from my phone and it makes it hard to reread this so i'm sorry if i am failing at describing this very well.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby MrScoopa » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:45 pm

I think its two rotations.

Closed to neutral. (everything is pointing at the target line). Like the right pec drill.
Neutral to open. Shoulders and hips open. Forearm swings out.

Honestly, I don't really think about it much other than my initial hip turn. Maybe I should.

Try doing the right pec drill with what you are describing and see what it does to your hit.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby DiscJay » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:39 pm

I notice that when I start pushing my drives to the right(RHBH) it's usually because my right shoulder has moved past the line of the throw too early. I can't seem to get the pause in there. This especially happens when I am working on starting the throw with my hips.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby Redisculous » Fri Nov 12, 2010 6:42 am

yeah this is definitely in the second rotation. From the right pec out. I've only had one chance to really try this out in a field. I didn't have to try as hard to keep the shoulders parallel as I initially thought. I didn't get any extra d but I didn't suffer the 'one step back' I usually do when I change things up and was hitting lines better.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby Redisculous » Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:26 am

So I was just watching some of Brad Walker's videos and I noticed that he, and actually quite a few people throw their left arm out away from their body at the same moment in the throw. I'm thinking that this might slow down the shoulders at the proper time. Any thoughts on this?

I wish I could post a link but , my phone doesn't let me.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby JR » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:08 am

The arm can start out away from the body at the reach back because you aren't supposed to generate a lot of power then. Later is better. There is a benefit to the arm being away from the body at the reach back and that is the arm muscles will be looser. That means a quicker arm acceleration when you slam on the power. When you move the arm to the right pec position during the shoulder pause the arm should pass close to the body so that the arm won't slow down the body rotation.

There is another way to generate more arm power than straight back to front arm pull too. That is bent elbow with back to the target and shoulders as far left as possible that is 200+ degrees away from the target. Unfortunately improper timing of the body rotation early will get teh torso in the way of the disc. Something i've done too much this season grr. I'm a greedy bastard obviously not always waiting long enough to put on the gas :-( Argh. Lots of disc to rib collisions :oops: The reason i've done this is that for me this technique generates even more power than the arm to the rear left at the reach back.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby Redisculous » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:54 pm

what I meant was, while the dis is crossing the chest, or up by the right pec, their non throwing arm is away and behind their body, which can only slow you down, since it is so far away from your center.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby JR » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:32 pm

The off arm isn't stationary relative to the torso. Try standing straight with the throwing arm at the farthest point of the reach back and the off arm as well. Try to move the disc across the chest so that the shoulders mirror image (or close to)each other in their angle relative to the spine. in other words the shoulders move in unison. See what happens to the off arm when it is locked straight. The off arm will follow the throwing arm. The off arm will return to the left side when the throwing hand is by the left pec for someone with my proportions. That is quite close to the body.

You can add power from the off arm by moving it actively from the shoulder and the elbow toward the target when you move that arm in front of the stomach when the throwing arm is at the right pec position>rip.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby Redisculous » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:24 pm

This is what I was talking about, see how their non-throwing arms are out behind them? It's like it's helping slow down or stop their shoulders, almost like they are using it as a counterweight to get more leverage when they do it, it's really clear in the videos.

Image

sorry for the lame pic, clearly editing photos is not my thing.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby JR » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:27 pm

What does the counter weight do for adding leverage? Ain't the left arm behind the body not moving a lot just a drag anchor type slower of rotation? Like an ice skater spreading out arms to slow the spin rate. I don't understand what you're saying could you please elaborate? Bradley is much farther in the throw close to the rip and Avery has some way to go the pictures aren't of the same part of the throw.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby Redisculous » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:09 am

Slowing the rotation is exactly what I'm thinking it does. Helping the shoulders slow down or pause.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby MrScoopa » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:27 am

The act of bringing the disc to the right pec area will stop the shoulders.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby JR » Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:36 am

Ok now i think i get what you mean at least partially. In the picture with Avery the disc is coming to where the initial shoulder turn stops starting the shoulder pause. Bradley has passed the point where the shoulders remain stationary thus he's already stopped the shoulder pause and started the second shoulder turn. By which time the left arm should be moving with or faster than the rotation for reduced power loss from hauling around the weight of the arm. And you do spin faster if the left arm moves faster than everything from the shoulders down. The left shoulder turns almost or in unison with the right shoulder. Flinging the left arm forward helps to turn the shoulders faster adding power to the late acceleration of the arm.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Shoulder pause.

Postby JHern » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:59 pm

Probably the more important thing is to try and lead with the hips (from neutral to open) before allowing your shoulders or arm to move past neutral, which pretty much takes care of everything you're taking about. The plant foot anchors the right leg and right hip into place, forcing your hips to swing open. The hips should begin to open just as the plant foot comes down. You can add to the hip swing by pushing off your back foot at the same time (or not). The opening of the hips then runs up the length of your torso as your body twists open from the waist on up. The opening starts at the hips and moves up to your shoulders like a twist wave. This ensures that the maximum force and momentum are delivered to your upper body.

What happens before you get to neutral may or may not matter. Blake was usually arguing against a big reachback or turning the shoulders too far back, since the added speed you get going from full reachback heading into the neutral position messes up the rhythm and timing of events. I can see why: if your shoulders twist all the way back, and you whip your arm forward from the full reachback, then they will likely overtake your hips, when in fact it is your hips that should be leading the charge. In this version of the bent elbow technique, the role of that part of the throw involving the reachback to the right pec position seems to be to pre-load your wrist as it goes into the right pec position, and that's about it.

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