Flipping a Roc and a Cyclone?

[Peot]

Played some rounds over the weekend with a bunch of brand new discs that I picked up over the holidays, including an ESP Cyclone and a DX Roc, both of which I flipped a couple times. I found this pretty strange, since the wind was pretty calm, and I'm not sure that it was OAT since I was able to throw a GL Fuse and a Pro Leopard on pure hyzers pretty easily. I think reading the forums here has helped me a lot, and especially improving my power (threw the Leo 270 on a pretty low hyzer flip line in the woods. Not terribly far but work with me)

What would you attribute me flipping these discs to? The Cyclone seems to be pretty flippy, but the Roc I'm not so sure about.

[CatPredator]

Could be the bead on the rim causing a hitch in your release. Do you get your index finger pad flat on the inside rim? Is the disc ripping cleanly off your index finger? Too much speed and not enough spin can also cause the disc to fly poorly if you aren't getting a nice snap.

If you don't use a modified fan grip for your midranges you might want to try it out.

[JR]

I flip Rocs and don't flip Buzzzes. I think my problem comes from the bottom of the bead dragging along the index finger finger print area. My hand ain't large and the fingers aren't that long although they aren't terribly thick. I think i'll try something esoteric to try to diagnose/get rid of flipping Rocs. That is not putting the bead in the outermost joint of the index finger. I'll try putting the bead in the middle of my index finger finger print to see if anything changes. I know people throw Rocs way farther than your Leo 270' with a flat release without any turn.

Doesn't Catpredator need a different rank than noob?

[Joe Reynolds]

It is OAT!!! It's not the bead. You are probly throwing the roc and clone harder than the Leo and losing good hyzer form and control. Practice keeping your arm on the same plane as your shoulders(that means if your throwing a hyzer you should follow throughout high)and not rolling your wrist(palm should not point up after releese).good luck.

[CatPredator]

It's definitely OAT but probably because the disc is ripping off the middle, ring, and/or pinky finger too much. Getting a clean rip off the index pad seems to be a problem that people have with older, narrow rimmed, beaded discs like the Roc and BB Aviar.

[JR]

I have difficulty in believing it is (only) OAT because it happens at somewhat less than full power too but not at 70-80% power and trust me i hit the shit out of Leos (flips few degrees), Buzzzes(no flip whatsoever) and i've thrown the Roc with only the index finger under the rim bead on the outermost joint. And still flipped it. I refuse to throw it like a Comet because i lose so much D vs Buzzz. I flip rocs to flat from about 7-8 degrees of initial hyzer when i throw hard regardless of when i start to accelerate the arm. Late acceleration doesn't cure the flipping for me.

I know about plane breaking, locked fingers and wrist rolls and can avoid them on other discs and feel like i avoid them with Rocs too. Year after year after year. It's not like i haven't tried and can't throw putters on drives or Comets or lids without OAT with the same results as others. It's TBs, Rocs and Wizards that give me grief. TB doesn't have a bead but it has a profile that has the corner of the wing and the rim shaped so that it drags along the index finger print area easily. I've felt it and seen it in the skin color change after dragging throws. Even sharper discs like Avengers and Spirits are just fine for me. I lack the best powered wrist snap but still it doesn't explain away how i can throw some discs purely and can't some of those staple discs known to not flip. Confusing and contradictory. That's why i haven't been able to tackle the problem yet.

I haven't managed the finger print under the bead single finger grip test yet and won't this week but i'll get to it eventually.

[Peot]

I'm with JR in that I don't flip Buzzzes, or even Magics or Wizards. I think it might be the grip on the Rocs; I've been going back and forth between the Climo fan grip and a three finger grip.

What is this single finger grip test?

[CatPredator]

Grab the disc with just your index finger and thumb and establish a vice grip on the disc with your finger pad flat flat flat on the rim and your thumb clamped down on the flight plate right above the finger's tip. Then you try to throw with just those fingers. People who are learning will usually have to stack their middle finger on top of or next to the index to help control the disc.

It teaches you how hard you really need to be grabbing and more importantly which tendons in your arm do that grabbing. People who use a power grip for most of their shots, especially on wide rimmed drivers a lot, tend to have a bad release because they are used to grabbing hard with all of their fingers and may be ripping off of a weird spot.

Once you learn how to rip off the index pad you will find that, in a modified fan grip, the index and thumb are doing virtually all the work. The other three fingers just support the flight plate and lightly secure the disc in your palm.

[masterbeato]

since your throwing flippier discs on a hyzer line clean it is most likely a mentally orientated OAT. trying to throw stable stuff on a hyzer line you are probably throwing them too hard trying to compensate for the stability difference which is screwing up your clean throw.

[jaydub803]

I have progressed in snap power(i think) to where I can usually make any of my rocs glide over to the right a few feet over the course of the flight before fading left. This has turned out a way more reliable shot line than the old ones practiced to over come fade. 3 months ago I was releasing with anhyzer and getting s lines with a roc and turning over a mako at full tilt off the tee. Last week, I was releasing rocs flat and getting laser straight lines off the tee, turning a mako softly more right than a roc. Today, I was able to stand still and get a 176 star san marino roc to come in on a straight line with about 5 degrees of hyzer at about 250'. I can really try and get one to glide right with no fade back now, or I can hyzer and get it straight. Sometimes I try to get a straight shot and it fades bad right, and after thinking about it, I think the only difference in my throws is really focusing or not on keeping my right shoulder higher through the rip and release and making sure my wrist stays firm until release. I check my wrist alignment during prep for every shot by looking straight down my arm with disc in hand checking to see that my arm, wrist and thumb are all point the same way in a line with my thumb about a thumb width in from the disc edge. Since I made that habit, my drives with mids have been going as long as my fairway drivers used to and I suddenly find myself using less of the molds I carried before and being able to focus more on getting hyzers to to hyzer and annies to anhyzer with more stable discs by now focusing on disc angle during the reach back more than the right grip to release from.

[dgdave]

The rocs shouldn't go right on 250 throws unless thrown on an anny line or with oat

[JR]

I've done the grip test that CatPredator described above and i utilize the tendons that were highlighted by it in drives with all types of discs. Unfortunately at full power i still flipped Rocs. I hope to be able to throw tomorrow to test the finger print under the bead grip. Every time i power down on Rocs no matter the grip i won't flip them. I don't notice wrist rolls or plane breaking on those shots. And then i throw the longest putters farther than the powered down Roc so i have no use in powering down Rocs. It may be indicative of the Roc needing way more spin than i can generate to tame the speed i can generate. Buzzz being faster may even things out despite the Roc being able to thrown in a left headwind to 140 meters about 3 meters downhill. I filmed Markus Källström doing that in The Dutch Open 2010. That means that given a proper throw Rocs can whoop the ass of Buzzzes and i'm deficient.

[JR]

Sorry for the cross post but i wanted this in here too for the people following this thread:

The conditions don't allow reliable conclusions but i finally got help to my Roc flipping problems by not curling the index finger onto the rim. I had no luck with the finger print under the bead grip with just the index finger under the disc. So i put the outermost joint of the index finger under the bead and curled the tip of the finger very little. I concentrated on applying more pressure vertically with the index finger and setting as much of the base of the thumb onto the disc and giving more pressure to the rear of the disc initially than ever before. No flipping but the stiff right rear wind and the snow with reduced traction makes it impossible to gauge what's what. The D was less than in the summer so that should help with not flipping. Summer, traction and added power may bring back the flips. But so far Rocs have never flown this well for me. Yay!

[JR]

Session two. This time wind gusts of 23 MPH were reported by the Finnish Meteorological Institute. The direction was mostly right rear with occasional almost right to left. I switched to a used DX 166 Roc and it too held the initial lines until i lost it. This time i cleared room for an x step so that the tartan surface with great grip was usable most of the time. I did get some slipping on the slush. I don't know how far i threw the Roc but i suspect i outdrove it with the longest Ion and 150 s Wizard shots. Each of those held the line released flat without flipping. This is after fiddling with grips. Jokeri in premium plastic was less than 10' shorter. in those winds it faded more but was still quite straight most of the flight. All those discs flew awesomely now that i stopped squeezing index finger outermost joint to tip area forcefully to the rim with Rocs, Ions and Wizards. TB 11x tye dye 172 and a broken in DX 175 did not flip at all even with the outer part of the index finger was squeezed to the rim. Had this been a calm day i'd be celebrating. now i'm cautiously interested and ok nice but let's see what's what without the rear wind.

[tgm]

I used to flip my Rocs going right around the 275ft mark, but it was all due to poor form. I never had a problem flipping Cyclones though when I used it as my primary driver. The Roc always felt odd to me (I'm usually a Buzzz thrower), but life has been better since I switched to a three finger grip vs all four.