Finding the hit, then building the throw

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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby JR » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:44 pm

Beetard wrote:The ice age finally ended and I got out in a field. I made good progress because I changed my concept of grip.

What I used do was just lock all of my fingers onto the rim and pull the disc tight against my palm. This allows no "levering of the disc"

Now I'm trying to grip it like it's an aerobie ring; like there is no rim -Just trying to hold the flight plate between my index and thumb. The points that touch if I were to hold a pencil like I was going to write with it, that is the workhorse of this grip- the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index right near the nail. This grip feels really uncomfortable and weak, but it lets the disc move in my hand the way I think it is supposed to.


I was at the mash the disc tightly to the palm and never let it pivot phase for the longest time. The grip needs to be lose enough to allow the disc to pivot until the index finger and the thumb are barely touching the disc at at least four o'clock. More is better. I don't have powerful enough fingers yet for Chris Voigt (and dgdave) type of of pinching you described. I do get slips with less than full power that way. Have you read the trigger pull grip thread? There is a halfway point between a trigger pull and Voigt type of grip which allows a very free pivot and enough cleanness of release and grip strength for the hardest throws without slips in about 23F and above. YMMV according to the disc you're using, hand and finger size and strength plus the overall power you're generating.

The best throws i've had feel like nothing. Too effortless. That's how important timing is and i don't have it down to that much accuracy and exactness that i'd get those effortless rips more often than every now and then. No way of using those for shot planning considering how freak accident rare they are for me. URGH!
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby zj1002 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:59 pm

JR, after doing some recent "re-training" with the trigger pull, I am more convinced that this is a vital tool for people to use in helping understand how to feel the weight of the disc and the pivot. Every time I go a round where I can't seem to hit it, I go back and do some field work with the trigger pull. This really helps me feel the disc pivot at the last second. I think the way we presented it made it very hard to people to read and a lot of people got lost in our lengthy and technical discussions. I have started teaching the trigger pull to some of my fellow Texas State University students and they immediately were able to at least understand the concept. I will be doing a lot of experiments on them to see if this truly is a helpful in developing the hit.

This trigger pull grips creates a similar feel to what Blurr is talking about with an Aerobie ring. I never thought of it like, but it is pretty much the same idea. I don't use the trigger pull during competition, it is simply a warm-up drill to help me feel the disc. For those interested here is the link to the ramblings of JR and myself on this subject: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19767&hilit=trigger+pull
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby JR » Mon Feb 14, 2011 11:42 pm

I was stuck with learning the wrist snap prior to loosening up the grip and making it possible for the first time for the disc to pivot before it ripped of the fingers. So it can definitely be a deal breaker to squash the disc into the palm. If you do that most of the sekret jedi things Blake wrote of amount to nothing. I think we need a simple video slow motion of what a disc pivot looks like. It's too cold outside and too dark inside for me to do it. Going outside risks breaking the camera so no thanks this will have to wait. You don't even need a trigger pull grip to demonstrate disc pivot. Or the cut disc Bradley Walker used in his snap video.

Check this for a short simple approach to getting a disc to pivot and feeling it at no speed drill:

If one extends the arm straight (no elbow bend) then cocks back the wrist with a disc in the hand with the Voigt grip and actively swings the wrist to straight or a little right of it and tries to stop the wrist the disc will pivot if you maintain a loose enough of a grip. That's the feel you are looking for and need to recreate in an actual long drive. That mandates loose arm muscles and a loose grip until the disc has started to pivot and is off of your palm. It's so simple there's nothing more to teaching the importance and execution of the principle of the disc pivot. There's of course a lot more one can do to make it a more forceful snap. End of drill description.

A hint: If you can't get the disc to pivot fast with this drill with the muscle looseness of just having woken up you need to seriously strengthen your wrists and learn to move the wrist fast by repeated snaps. I suggest short arm putting with a wrist snap trying to sink actual putts at long ranges to a basket. This helps to teach the nervous system to guide loose muscles faster than ever before and it teaches wrist control and turns some of the muscle cells from semi fast to fast. All of which increase distance in droves while you learn to putt form long distance. Two lunches for one drill. I've been told that three months minimum is usually needed for cell changes in detectable amounts. The good thins is that there's a lot to of distance be gained from muscle guidance control alone and that takes way less time than three months. Based on me learning physical execution of a completely new style slowly and getting results with three sessions of a few hours each. If we were face to face i think many would have results in minutes for increased putting distance if they haven't used the wrist actively to snap the disc forward.

Of course some people might learn better from the mental image if holding a piece of paper or other flat things without rims like Aerobie rings. People learn differently but that mental image does not tell how it feels to have something pivot between the fingers or how loose the fingers and arm muscles need to be to achieve that in a DG drive.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Dookville » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:38 am

Beetard wrote:The ice age finally ended and I got out in a field. I made good progress because I changed my concept of grip.

What I used do was just lock all of my fingers onto the rim and pull the disc tight against my palm. This allows no "levering of the disc"

Now I'm trying to grip it like it's an aerobie ring; like there is no rim -Just trying to hold the flight plate between my index and thumb. The points that touch if I were to hold a pencil like I was going to write with it, that is the workhorse of this grip- the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index right near the nail. This grip feels really uncomfortable and weak, but it lets the disc move in my hand the way I think it is supposed to.

It took me a few monthes to get it right, but I have ended up with a varient of Ken Climos stacked finger grip. It wasn't so much that his grip is the be all end all, though you can't argue his results, it was what you have described as finding the pivot in your grip. I think Climo explains it well when he says that you isolate the pivot point down to your thumb and index finger and take the chance of having four pivot points out of the equation by freeing up your other three fingers.

Here is the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAV8kKURKaw
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby josser » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:42 pm

dgdave wrote:That's when you're doing it right! :)


I know.

You = :D
Me = still working hard to figure it out
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby JR » Fri Feb 18, 2011 10:22 am

Busy so get the files from my post from today in:
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=19031&p=325642#p325642

Enjoy.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby JR » Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:30 am

For reference the disc is 21,2 cm in diameter so you can approximate the speed of the throw and the spin rate. I think both throws filmed from below were from stand still throws. The guy throwing won the Euro Tour 2010 in masters division and placed third at the Big D 8 in masters division. If you look at the video where i'm filming from behind left and below picture by picture you can see the details of the disc exiting from the palm and pivoting around the thumb and index finger.

Good luck matching the sidearms from the European champion :-)
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Beetard » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:08 am

just wanted to update, not necessarily looking for advice

Really mixed up and probably saying and believing all kinds of incorrect things about grip right now and trying to figure out the moment of the disc leaving my hand, but it's so hard not to get distracted with other things.

Starting to understand that the follow through resulting from throws where power is generated at the hit (instead of way early) requires confidence and flexibility. By working slowly at increasing how hard I rip and follow through, I can increase both the the flexibility and confidence I need to not fuck myself up. A real throw is much more of a feat than crappy pull-early-then-coast-eek-280-out-of-a-distance-driver nonsense.

Locking up and pussing out is the body's reflex to abrupt stretches and changes in direction. For example, when you try to touch your toes, your hamstrings reflexively contract. They are all like, "Woah, we're not goin' there!" but they can be taught gradually to relax.

It seems to me the foot pivot is the proper response to the follow-through. It is to relieve the strain on the knee and is reflexive and instinctive. You really don't need to try to do it, it is part of the body's "not going there" response. If you follow through hard, your brain is going to make your leg do something to prevent wrenching your knee. If you don't put too much on a throw, the pivoting reflex isn't going to kick in and that is OK.

Foot pivot definitely happens after the disc has ripped. If you try to pivot before you have reason to do so, the disc is going to be released way right of where you were aiming and probably with poor power
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby CatPredator » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:34 am

Foot pivot definitely happens after the disc has ripped. If you try to pivot before you have reason to do so, the disc is going to be released way right of where you were aiming and probably with poor power


It's not as simple as that. Your foot pivot is directly tied to hip rotation. In a strong throw, your hips are what start the throw. The timing occurs in a very small window but, if you want to protect your knee, your foot pivot will happen basically in sync with your hip rotation. The catch is, the disc rips before your hips complete their rotation, so if you are light on your feet and have good timing, the disc will leave during the pivot.

This isn't something you really should focus on though, as it does occur naturally and will vary depending on how flexible your hips are.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Star Shark » Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:39 am

In watching various pro vids, it seems their foot pivot occurs almost exactly at the hit. I suspect that my recent troubles comes from my current dg shoes... they're a little heavy and VERY grippy. Salomon Fastpacker II Mids. I think they're preventing me from getting a proper pivot.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Sean40474 » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:09 am

Dookville wrote:
Beetard wrote:The ice age finally ended and I got out in a field. I made good progress because I changed my concept of grip.

What I used do was just lock all of my fingers onto the rim and pull the disc tight against my palm. This allows no "levering of the disc"

Now I'm trying to grip it like it's an aerobie ring; like there is no rim -Just trying to hold the flight plate between my index and thumb. The points that touch if I were to hold a pencil like I was going to write with it, that is the workhorse of this grip- the pad of the thumb and the pad of the index right near the nail. This grip feels really uncomfortable and weak, but it lets the disc move in my hand the way I think it is supposed to.

It took me a few monthes to get it right, but I have ended up with a varient of Ken Climos stacked finger grip. It wasn't so much that his grip is the be all end all, though you can't argue his results, it was what you have described as finding the pivot in your grip. I think Climo explains it well when he says that you isolate the pivot point down to your thumb and index finger and take the chance of having four pivot points out of the equation by freeing up your other three fingers.

Here is the vid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAV8kKURKaw


That helps me open my eyes a little more in understanding the grip concept, thanks for the link.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Monocacy » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:37 am

Star Shark wrote:. . . I suspect that my recent troubles comes from my current dg shoes... they're a little heavy and VERY grippy. Salomon Fastpacker II Mids. I think they're preventing me from getting a proper pivot.

I switched to tennis-style shoes for disc golf. Tennis shoes pivot more easily, reducing stress on my cartilage-deficient pivot knee. With knobby shoes, my pivot knee would ache for days after a round or three.
Last edited by Monocacy on Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Monocacy » Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:47 am

CatPredator wrote:. . . Your foot pivot is directly tied to hip rotation. In a strong throw, your hips are what start the throw. The timing occurs in a very small window but, if you want to protect your knee, your foot pivot will happen basically in sync with your hip rotation. The catch is, the disc rips before your hips complete their rotation, so if you are light on your feet and have good timing, the disc will leave during the pivot.

This isn't something you really should focus on though, as it does occur naturally and will vary depending on how flexible your hips are.

Yes, I am just getting the hang of this and it has helped my throw considerably. For a long time, I had trouble getting my hips out of the way because I was concentrating on my footwork. When I started concentrating on the hip twist, the footwork took care of itself naturally.

Caveat: I am still in the “stuck at 300’ club”, so obviously I have more to learn. :roll:
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Banjar » Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:02 am

I am by no means a pro and I don't throw partcullar long either. But I have found the hit, and I figured I would share how I did it in this thread, so maybe someone else can confirm if this works for them.

what I do was a small wrist flex at the reachback. Reachback to max, the do a slight outward 'nudge' with your wrist. Initiate the pull when the disc starts to bounce back from the nudge. Because of the rebound of the disc, my arm and wrist end up in a nice position to feel the hit (the disc pushes heavily into my the palm of my hand, then it pulls hard on my fingers). Now I just have to work on everything else... This method helped me loosening up at the start of the throw and the timings of the pull feels very natural now (though they could be they are right or wrong).

This is me throwing in the video that can be seen in this thread: http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21160

The two-three last throws (from 0:58 and onwards) are the best ones for illustrating my concept. It feels effortless to throw 250-300 feet like this. Just don't pay attention to anything else in my form ;-)
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Re: Finding the hit, then building the throw

Postby Sean40474 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:42 am

I'll have to check your video out later as youtube is blocked at my work :\ I'm interested in seeing what you're talking about in action.
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