Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

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Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby Royalbishop » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:00 am

Looking for some advice on what discs I should keep or get rid of on my throwing technique. I have only playing for a year but I have caught on quickly and throwing backhand on average 450-500. My sidearm varies greatly but I can throw consistently on a good day around 450. I have a slight accuracy problem with my hyzer flip shots but almost dead on with my overstable discs that I have. My mid to short game I find myself ripping it to the chains, rather than my friend who floats it. I'm not the greatest at putting but I have my good days, bought a basket to practice in this dismal winter. Anyways, I would appreciate some advice on my disc selection, Thanks!!


Drivers
z Force
z Predator
star Xcaliber
esp Surge
champ Beast
champ Destroyer
star Max
z Nuke
champ Teebird
star boss - sidearm
champ boss - sidearm
z flick - sidearm
z crush - sidearm

Midranges
z Wasp
star Roc
2x esp Drones
esp Hornet

Putter
3x esp Zones
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby jaydub803 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:00 am

I am not super familiar with some of your molds or the courses you play but it looks to me like you have a good bit of overlap there in your mids and your drivers. I would drop a few of the fastest discs you have, and maybe try to cut out some mids. I used to carry a lot of molds too, and after I while I dropped most of my 13 speed for 10 and 11 speed discs that I could control more at near max d. That dropped me by strokes a round by just cutting out pointless choices between discs that will both hit the line I need. Example, I used to carry a *valk, a *roadrunner, a *beast, champ starfire and several champ and dx drivers I cant even remember. I would use the valk or beast for the longest straight shots, starfire for left turns, and the valk or roadrunner for most anhyzers. I lost the valk in the lake for a while, and then I started using the road runner for almost all my straight and anhyzer shots. Then I lost that, and the least stable disc I had was my beast for a while. Now I can use that one disc for about 90% of my shots, either to the left, center or right.
Point is, I was at one point carrying 10 or more discs I could use off the tee, and that made me want to try a different one on every hole even though it was my home course instead of having the confidence and knowledge to know what disc to be carrying to the next pad. Something else that helps me a lot is if I am having a bad few rounds, I take out one or two of those go to discs and put in something similar enough to them but different to get me back on top of my form.
Build a bag a day and keep the boredom at bay!
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby CatPredator » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:35 am

The general goal of any disc golfer is to be able to throw any line at any speed. Put simply, it means being able to throw shots that go left, right, and straight. If you feel like you're there already, you're set!

You seem to have a lack of discs that go dead nuts straight though. Pick up a classic putter like an Aviar, Wizard, Challenger, etc... and learn to throw it 300' completely straight. Then get a close-to-neutral stability mid like a Buzz, Comet, Core, etc... and learn to throw it 350-400' straight. Players who can manipulate their putters and midranges well dominate the game.

Other than that, simplify. You have too many overstable max distance drivers. To put things in perspective, the #1 player in the world basically only throws Xcals and Destroyers for distance. You could safely cut the Boss, Nuke, Force, Surge, Beast, Flick, and Crush out and still be able to hit nearly every line there is above 400' with those 2 discs.

That same player also carries nearly 10 Eagles and 10 Rocs so he has a wider variety of options at lower distances.

edit: *disclaimer* not recommending you put 10 of a mold in your bag, 2 or 3 will usually do the job.
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby Wyno » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:30 am

You've got a lot in there that's for sure.
Like Cat pointed out all your discs are stable to overstable. I'll risk seeming harsh here by pointing out that your bag looks pretty damn typical for someone who have been mostly interested in distance, and developed a throw plagued by OAT, then compensated with all the overstable drivers known to man. That's not exactly unusual, I think most people who end up here have been through these phases.

So, I'll continue writing this with the perspective that you might be a bit optimistic about your distance etc - and I realize I may be way off - in that case take what you want from my comments. If you can throw up to 500 repeatedly and reasonably consistently after a year, and only have small problems with putting, you're in a league of a handful of players with luck or god-given talent and you might actually use a lot of these discs to your advantage.
On the other hand, if I'm right and there's a bit of "I wish" in those distances etc, that only means you are a normal person (wich is nice), and in that case my advice would be:

Measure your distance rigorously (say, median distance in 20 throws on a football field or similar easily measured area), with putters, mids and some of your drivers. If possible make a video of your throw and post in the video critique section. With more info about your throw it will be much easier to say something constructive about your bag.

Without such information, here's some conventional wisdom: there's no way you need or can profit from 17 molds in your bag. Consider wich slots you want to have and audition your discs for those slots. This should make you aware that you've no understable discs in your bag, wich seems like several gaping holes to me (I realize some people with a good forehand advocate no understable discs; I don't agree).
read this: http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... disc.shtml (and the rest of the articles on the front page as well, it's mostly gold)
And yeah, if you could share a bit on how you ended up with this bag that would be nice as well - have you tested many other discs, based on recommendations, gifts, or what?
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Main Bag: Z Surge SS, Z Pred, N Volt, E Vector, N Axis, P Ion, P Anode. Touch bag: XLs, Comets, Rattlers
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby CatPredator » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:24 am

Wyno wrote:your bag looks pretty damn typical for someone who have been mostly interested in distance, and developed a throw plagued by OAT, then compensated with all the overstable drivers known to man


Right...with that bag it would be nearly impossible to even know if you were torquing them funny. 2 Drones? 3 Zones? And all ESP?!? Madness!!! If you wanted to give a diehard, old school, lid throwing, minimalist a stroke, this bag might do it for ya.

Still, I give him the benefit of the doubt because, like you say, most of us assume we need to start out with fast overstable plastic to play disc golf and end up with huge OAT, unable to throw a putter or understable disc. However, if you have the raw athletic ability to throw 500' accurately that way, more power to ya. These are the people that, if they stay disciplined, could rise to the top of nearly any sport.
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby Wyno » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:04 am

CatPredator wrote:Still, I give him the benefit of the doubt ...

Yeah, I just had to mention these doubts here ;-) it seems you're just a nicer person :-)

CatPredator wrote:... if you have the raw athletic ability to throw 500' accurately that way, more power to ya. These are the people that, if they stay disciplined, could rise to the top of nearly any sport.

This is true, and those who want to go from 450 with some control to 500 with total control (or from banging zone's in the chains to great, consistent putting) would probably benefit from a different approach than those wanting to get from 250 to 400. Unfortunately most info (on here or anywhere else) is geared towards the most common situation - 250-to-400. It would be good to collect best practices for power throwers seeking control, seems many of them have to go through a lot of attempts at changing their technique and quite a few drop out along the way.

Now, that's not gonna happen to you Royalbishop, so sorry for the drift and back to your questions :-)
Mark Ellis wrote:Most sins can be erased with a blunt edged disc.

Main Bag: Z Surge SS, Z Pred, N Volt, E Vector, N Axis, P Ion, P Anode. Touch bag: XLs, Comets, Rattlers
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby jubuttib » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:40 pm

If those distances are true there's not a lot we can say to you, you should just find the discs that do it for you (preferable sticking to under 17 different molds so you don't end up having to carry 40 discs...). You probably don't need 5 or so overstable warp speed/semi-warp speed drivers in your bag for example.

If you feel that you're having trouble with hyzerflips (perhaps anhyzers too?) then you should get a couple of disc that are on the understable side (I can suggest getting a couple of S-TDs from Discmania. The stiff ones especially seem to be liked by big armed players wanting to throw straight) to practice with.

Oh and a DX TeeBird never hurt anyone, great for practicing all sorts of stuff. And get a PD. And when it comes out the C-PD2 and dump the XCals, Forces etc. =)
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby Royalbishop » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:35 pm

In reference to the average of my backhand throws 450-500, that is in an open field which I have gauged at Blue Ribbon Pines, the driving range(hole 18 I believe). The creek I believe is 500, it either goes over or drops alittle short. Now for example when I am at hole 4, I have the power to get it their but I seem to never get it straight enough down the middle. I have tried to throw a buzz down that gap but It wont go straight unless I really let up on the power but then I'm losing distance. Cat pointed out that I have no discs that go dead straight, is that with alot of power or very little? For example when I throw the buzz and I release it flat its not going straight for me, Its dippin right either to the ground or into the other fairway. My impression of a hyzer flip is a big s curve, which does not look straight on a piece of paper(to me), but a powerfull force throw on paper does. Should a teebird thrown correctly be straighter than a force throw for a longer distance?
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby Wyno » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:42 pm

Royalbishop wrote:In reference to the average of my backhand throws 450-500, that is in an open field which I have gauged at Blue Ribbon Pines, the driving range(hole 18 I believe). The creek I believe is 500, it either goes over or drops alittle short. Now for example when I am at hole 4, I have the power to get it their but I seem to never get it straight enough down the middle. I have tried to throw a buzz down that gap but It wont go straight unless I really let up on the power but then I'm losing distance. Cat pointed out that I have no discs that go dead straight, is that with alot of power or very little? For example when I throw the buzz and I release it flat its not going straight for me, Its dippin right either to the ground or into the other fairway. My impression of a hyzer flip is a big s curve, which does not look straight on a piece of paper(to me), but a powerfull force throw on paper does. Should a teebird thrown correctly be straighter than a force throw for a longer distance?


well, just, wow. I'd say a 443 hole is a tall order for a Buzz :) Good choice if you wanna keep in the fairway, however 400 feet of speed will make a Buzz turn even if it's applied cleanly.
What kind of Buzz is it and how far can you throw it without turning, that is diving right?

A hyzerflip kan be done with a (under)stable disc pushed (slightly) above it's cruising speed, this can be a pretty damn straight shot as it doesn't turn all the over but still gets a forward dominated and muted fade - not the harsher fade of an overstable disc thrown flat and stalling out.
Anyway you throw, it will get straighter with more spin, as this stabilizes the disc, making it turn and fade less.
High arm speed + OAT + a lack of spin = needing overstable discs + trouble with keeping in fairway.

and yeah, a teebird thrown say 440 wil probably be straighter than a Force thrown 440, depending on the particular dics of course. generally slower = straighter, and the straightest finishing discs are putters, that's one of the reasons people like them (putters, not zones :wink: )
Mark Ellis wrote:Most sins can be erased with a blunt edged disc.

Main Bag: Z Surge SS, Z Pred, N Volt, E Vector, N Axis, P Ion, P Anode. Touch bag: XLs, Comets, Rattlers
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby jubuttib » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:15 pm

To me a hyzerflip is when you throw a disc with some initial hyzer and get it to flip flat, locking on to a straight line (in all likelihood it'll go straight while it's flipping flat too) and finishing with a small fade (how big the fade is depends on the disc, but since hyzerflipping requires a disc that behaves understable at the respective power level it probably won't be too big).

When I see a flightpath that starts out hyzer and flips over to do an S-curve flight I think of turnover.

The Buzzz will go straight (ie. fly and finish pretty darn straight) at even your power level, you just have to give it enough initial hyzer. A disc that won't turn over from a flat release at that power level will have to be pretty darn overstable and will also fade a lot at the end of it's flight. That is unless you manage to pull of a magical amount of spin on the damn thing...

If you keep the TeeBird from turning over too much (release it with enough hyzer) it'll finish straighter than the Force at pretty much any distance.

All in all you're better of than 99,999999% of people who start this game, for now you pretty much just need to practice the stuff that's giving you problems (I take it that the understable stuff is one part of this).
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby CatPredator » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:23 pm

Royalbishop wrote:The creek I believe is 500

I think the far edge is more like 425'. Short of the creek is definitely less than 425'.

Royalbishop wrote:at hole 4, I have the power to get it their but I seem to never get it straight enough down the middle

This is why most veteran players choose to throw a slow, straight disc, like a Buzz, 300-350' up the middle for a 3. Anything faster will not land in the middle of the 410' long, ~15' wide hallway unless you hit a lucky tree. 2's are extremely rare. One bad kick and you're looking at a 5+.

Royalbishop wrote:Cat pointed out that I have no discs that go dead straight, is that with alot of power or very little?

It's with any level of power. Yes, you can make them go straight during the high speed portion of the flight but they are going to slow down or skip and finish to the left. I'm talking about totally straight shots, from release to landing. The faster and more overstable a disc is, the harder this is to achieve.

If you are playing BRP you definitely don't have the right stuff in your bag yet. The course has only one bomber hole, the one you mention. The rest reward precision and placement of your disc inside the tight fairways and near the baskets. On a third of the holes I'm throwing a midrange or putter. On half the holes I'm throwing a fairway driver like a Teebird or Eagle. There are 4 or 5 of the 27 holes on which I break out a faster disc. What do you throw on the many holes that are less than 300'??

On a side note, we play there quite a bit during the winter. It's plowed and groomed so nicely! A dream for any snow discers...
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby jubuttib » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:46 am

CatPredator wrote:It's plowed and groomed so nicely! A dream for any snow discers...
I hate you all so much you have no idea. Seriously.
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby CatPredator » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:43 am

Oh, they sell beer too. Ha! Yea it's the best deal around.
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby JR » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:54 am

jubuttib wrote:
CatPredator wrote:It's plowed and groomed so nicely! A dream for any snow discers...
I hate you all so much you have no idea. Seriously.


The amount of work i did to kick a run way for me for field practice.... :evil: If it's not good beer i have no trouble with it :-)

Power throwers can possible substitute fairway drivers that are straight (Stalker, Leopard, Teebird as examples going from least fading to a lot fading depending on the plastic and wear) with a tweener disc that is a straight faster and longer than a midrange. Such as a Sabre (good luck finding similarly flying ones so some are straights some fade) and Squalls which come in different stabilities in different plastics. It's always good to be able to push the distance to which you can keep your disc on a tight fairway. Stalkers in Z plastic are the least fading primo plastic fairway drivers i' ve tried. Primo is often needed for a power player and mandatory on so wooded courses as BRP. Sabres have the weakness of not handling winds well. Squall is on my to test list so hearsay only and watching others throw one. Non primo plastic DX Leopard is gonna need initial hyzer to flip flat and that can fade less than a Z Stalker. For added wind tolerance and fading Glo Z Buzzz and Glo Z Stalker (hearsay for this) should help you.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Do I have the right stuff in my bag?

Postby CatPredator » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:49 am

A lot of Stalkers and Buzzzes get thrown at BRP. Discraft has a strong presence here. If you can control those two discs in the 300' range (very reasonable) you can card birdies on at least 15 of the 27 holes. If you can push them to 350' you can birdie more than 20 of the holes and par all but one or two. There are a lot, a lot, a lot of straight-ish placement shots.
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