Driving Putters and Ranchero Rocs - Hyzer Flip?

[jenb]

Should I be aiming for a hyzer flip when driving Putters and Ranchero Rocs and the like? Or is that bad technique? To clarify what I mean by hyzer flip, I don't mean it finishes right. It doesn't turn much right before it turns back up and flattens out, then eventually fades a little left at the end or glides in more or less straight.

My putter and roc were turning over hard and burning right or even rolling due to highly visible oat, so I started hyzering them to eliminate the oat and gradually adjusted into a seemingly oat free hyzer flip shot. Is that the shot I need to develop to increase my distance?

If I am supposed to make them go flat and straight start to finish, what adjustment should I make?

[Beetard]

That is actually a really good question. From my experience and what I've read on this board,rocs are really stable, especially the rancho roc. This Roc, as you probably know is the most recent and common Roc as it comes from Innova's factory which is now in Rancho California.

Rocs do not turn right until they are either very beat unless they are traveling 350+

Many Roc advocates would say to beat your disc until it does hyzer-flip the way you are describing. That won't be too hard as long as you stick with DX. It is the plastic the Roc was made for.

Your other option is to try some different disc that has less turn (or flip-up) resistance out of the box like a Discraft Comet or Buzzz

[CatPredator]

It sounds like you're still throwing with OAT but you put hyzer angle on the disc so when it turns, it just flattens out, instead of rolling all the way over. It's difficult to say for sure, because we don't know the condition of your discs.

There's no easy answer for fixing this problem. It's dependent on a wide variety of factors pertaining to your body shape and size. The best thing to do is go get some stable putters and midranges and experiment until you can throw a flat shot or smooth hyzers that don't turn over or flip to flat. It's a difficult thing to master because the timing is so precise, and there is no way to identify what you are doing wrong without seeing you throw.

[jenb]

Yeah, I'm not throwing 350+. Maybe 250. And these dx rocs were basically new. Not much beat in at all. I was throwing some long smooth hyzers with them before I started flipping them.

Other than the comet, is there a disc that I should be able to hyzer flip without oat if I am throwing about 250? A new dx leopard? It just seems like my z comets disguise the oat and are harder to turn over than the roc, while with the dx roc I can usually see the oat easily. The new z comet actually seems more stable than the new dx roc to me.

[AciDBatH666]

This is the reason that lots of people carry multiple Rocs (or any other disc) in their bag that are all beat to various degrees.
I carry 3. A SUPER beat 11X roc, a Flat top roc with medium wear, and a Special Blend new one.
The special blend is a mix of Champion and Star plastic, so it really doesn't beat in much. I throw it when I definitely need a hyzer line.
The Flat top is my go to Roc. I throw it with some hyzer and it goes straight for days. Fades a little to the left if I get some height on it.
11X is SUPER beat and turns right. So it's my Anny Roc.

If you want to get the most distance out of your Rocs and putters, you'll need to get an S line out of it if it's overstable. But if it's still going straight at the end of it's flight and not fading back to the left at all, you're fine with a straight line. The great thing about Rocs is they don't really need to do an S-turn to get distance. You get pretty good D from just a straight line drive. The key to it is getting it to go straight and fading straight. I've done some field tests and found that my Rocs went just as far as my other slower drivers just because they didn't have that left hook fade at the end.

Rocs are great for puting big power into em if you can control that straight flight.
I was throwing Wizards for a while but I needed a lot of left to right room to play with because I had to S them to get a lot of D out of them.

[Monocacy]

Yeah, I'm not throwing 350+. Maybe 250. And these dx rocs were basically new. Not much beat in at all. I was throwing some long smooth hyzers with them before I started flipping them.

Rocs are tricky. They are very stable when thrown cleanly, but they are also sensitive to OAT. You should be able to throw a Roc flat and straight on a 250’ throw. If a fresh Roc is turning and burning or needs more than a touch of hyzer, it is telling you something.

If you really want to test whether your throw is OAT-free, try throwing your Roc into a headwind. Watching a strong headwind chew up my Teebird a couple of years ago convinced me that I still had some work to do.

It just seems like my z comets disguise the oat and are harder to turn over than the roc, while with the dx roc I can usually see the oat easily. The new z comet actually seems more stable than the new dx roc to me.

If your Comet is flying more stable than your Roc, you may be inadvertently throwing each disc differently.

[CatPredator]

Yeah, I'm not throwing 350+. Maybe 250. And these dx rocs were basically new. Not much beat in at all. I was throwing some long smooth hyzers with them before I started flipping them.

Other than the comet, is there a disc that I should be able to hyzer flip without oat if I am throwing about 250? A new dx leopard? It just seems like my z comets disguise the oat and are harder to turn over than the roc, while with the dx roc I can usually see the oat easily. The new z comet actually seems more stable than the new dx roc to me.

In that distance range, the only thing that will be very controllable will be midranges like the Buzzz, Shark, Mako, Fuse, Comet, etc...you will probably have to beat them up a bit to get a nice controlled smooth turnover shot with them.

To go back to the original question, it is bad technique if it's your only technique. It's a much better idea to master the flat throw of a neutral stability disc first because it cultivates a throw with no OAT. Later you can add some back in to get nice hzyer flips, high apex nose down turnovers, etc., but it's really difficult to eliminate OAT if you design it into all of your shots.

Hyzer flips require a lot of precision and finesse to control. They are good for long distance, but not the most controlled distance. They're also useful for the tricky lines you can get out of them. However, in competitive golf, the shot of choice is almost always the more controlled, predictable shot: a stable disc on a smooth line. Once you start overpowering discs or applying OAT you get into advanced line shaping, which is important and fun to do, great for trouble shots and hazards and weird lines, but less predictable, and definitely not how you want to build the foundation of your game.

[jubuttib]

From my experience new Wizards shouldn't turn (at least not much) when thrown under 300'.

[Redisculous]

It just seems like my z comets disguise the oat and are harder to turn over than the roc, while with the dx roc I can usually see the oat easily. The new z comet actually seems more stable than the new dx roc to me.

...I don't even know what to think about this. Did you put up a video yet?

[JR]

Finger drag on the large bead of the Roc is my guess without seeing her throw. Comet is way more sensitive to OAT than Roc. Rocs don't flip Comets do. Kite may be a good hyzer flip disc for jenb because it is extra long and has a low power requirement. Kite just doesn't take winds well at all except it is one of the best rear wind discs but so is the Comet if given height. Kite doesn't need as much height to go far in rear winds. Kite has a gripping advantage to regular mids in that it is driver shaped thus easier to grip. The Kite is tall but the wing width ain't bad at all.

It depends on the Leopard weight and wear if it's gonna flip at 250'. DX in any weight after wear will flip at that power. So using two or more after the first one has beaten in to flip may be a good idea. Maybe even a max weight Star which is the most overstable kind regularly available Leo (my first Echo Star is on the way and those ES tends to be most overstable plastic of Innova).