Not enough

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Not enough

Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:06 am

We are so close...

All of my ideas... the "FLING" motion... The "swinging the head of the bat"... "throwing the other side of the disc"... Blake's yo yo... It's all correct.

I was watching a forehand thrower play the other day. Not a big thrower. He just threw with a little wrist snap about 300. His arm barely moved.

I thought... WTF... We backhanders have all this arm speed flying around... run ups... etc... For what?

We have the right idea... we simply are not doing it near enough..... The disc must travel ALL THE WAY AROUND THE WRIST AND THUMB. The arm must slow down. We are using too much arm speed to really get that thing completely around. I mean it needs to stop...

If you thing you are throwing this way... you are not... I try too and I can do WAYYYYYY more... My wrist could open 30 degrees more... I am so used to throwing with a fast arm there is NO WAY I can allow the big power source to work, which is the disc travel in a full semi circle around the thumb joint. I power past it every time.

Blake's YOUTUBE videos display the motion very well...
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Re: Not enough

Postby CatPredator » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:54 am

Matt Orum is a fairly good example of what you're talking about. His body and arm never appear to be moving very quickly but he really capitalizes on all the power he can lever onto the disc with his wrist. Good timing during that last inch or two of the throw...

Bradley Walker wrote: I am so used to throwing with a fast arm there is NO WAY I can allow the big power source to work, which is the disc travel in a full semi circle around the thumb joint.


This is true and basically everyone would be well served by slowing down. However the wrist isn't the power source, it's the converter, the transfer mechanism. If you have enough grip strength and can forcefully extend the wrist with perfect timing, power generated in the hips and core is multiplied by a huge factor and applied to the disc by virtue of the length of the arm.

I think it's probably a result of the exterior muscles of the forearm being weaker and less coordinated than the interior muscles. On a backhand, you rely on the speed of you arm to start the opening of the wrist (going from closed to approaching neutral, which most people rely on way too much), then you force it open the rest of the way (the out motion, which requires excellent timing in your hips, shoulders, and arm and is the stage most people miss). In a forehand, the muscles that force the disc out are stronger and more coordinated in almost everyone, which makes it a lot easier to hit that 300' mark, plus it's a much more natural throwing motion for almost everyone alive.

The wrist is really the guardian of power, but by itself is almost nothing. I know you already know all this stuff but it bears repeating for others and should stimulate some conversation...maybe.
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Re: Not enough

Postby Redisculous » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:21 am

I think I'm on the verge of a breakthrough after talking to Masterbeato. He told me that you extend the wrist, then fling the disc.

"you open (extend) your wrist BEFORE you release the disc"

This, in conjunction with some recent drilling made me realize I had been thinking about the wrist all wrong. Basically, I thought I was supposed to throw the disc with my wrist. After some practice I am using my wrist to throw the disc against my index/thumb lock to create the pivot. The pivot around the rip finger is where you need to be throwing hard, and pinching hard. It seems like this is where all the power really comes from.

After feeling this a few times, the "trigger pull grip" thing makes a lot more sense too.
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Re: Not enough

Postby zj1002 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:30 am

yeah, I really think the trigger pull grip is a great tool. I think the way me and JR presented it, was a bit reading intensive for most. The trigger pull really helped me feel the disc in my hand, but it definitely isn't something you want to build into your normal throw. You will get some serious timing issues if you rely on that. It allows you to feel the disc moving forward into your pivot point while your wrist is getting neutral, and when you "pull the trigger" the disc pivots around and rips right out

and also CatPred is quickly becoming my favorite new member in the technique sections. props dude, you got good write ups.
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Re: Not enough

Postby Sean40474 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:34 pm

zj1002 wrote:yeah, I really think the trigger pull grip is a great tool. I think the way me and JR presented it, was a bit reading intensive for most. The trigger pull really helped me feel the disc in my hand, but it definitely isn't something you want to build into your normal throw. You will get some serious timing issues if you rely on that. It allows you to feel the disc moving forward into your pivot point while your wrist is getting neutral, and when you "pull the trigger" the disc pivots around and rips right out

and also CatPred is quickly becoming my favorite new member in the technique sections. props dude, you got good write ups.


You have a link to this? I'd like to read it.
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Re: Not enough

Postby Blake_T » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:08 am

this is one of those threads that gets me referring to "most people."

this thread illustrates why "most people" have a fundamental flaw in their understanding of what is supposed to happen during a throw.

there's often a comparison of the throw (both sidearm and backhand) to a trebuchet. it's within this example that people tend to think incorrectly about the throw.

if you look at a trebuchet, there is the counter-weight, the fulcrum, the arm, the sling, and then the object being slung.

"most people" tend to think of the counter-weight as the off shoulder, the fulcrum as the rotational axis, the treb arm as the shoulder, the sling as the arm, and the slung object as the disc.

they are correct on 1 of these assumptions and this also explains the over-fascination with arm-speed.

it is like trebuchet, but it's more like this...
the counter weight is the tricep, the fulcrum is the elbow, the treb arm is the forearm, the sling is the wrist/hand, and the slung object is still the disc.

since people will get whiny if there's no picture since they're too lazy to type "trebuchet" into a google image search:
Image

now that you've seen the picture, read this again and try to picture how the f things work and how that leads to max speed on the disc:
the counter weight is the tricep, the fulcrum is the elbow, the treb arm is the forearm, the sling is the wrist/hand, and the slung object is still the disc.

what catpred wrote is correct, but there needs to be a few points emphasized:
-yes, the wrist is the guardian of power... but it's like... the primary reason that body power turns into disc power. generating 50mph of body power and launching a disc at close to 50mph is far superior to generating 80mph of body power and launching the disc at 30mph.

-you are better off having an un-athletic throwing motion that has big time snap than having the most athletic throwing motion in the world with weak snap.

-increasing your body's performance in motion will yield minimal gains if you can't get your wrist to behave this way.
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Re: Not enough

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:38 am

Blake_T wrote:-yes, the wrist is the guardian of power... but it's like... the primary reason that body power turns into disc power. generating 50mph of body power and launching a disc at close to 50mph is far superior to generating 80mph of body power and launching the disc at 30mph.

-you are better off having an un-athletic throwing motion that has big time snap than having the most athletic throwing motion in the world with weak snap.

-increasing your body's performance in motion will yield minimal gains if you can't get your wrist to behave this way.


Gospel brother... Friggin gospel...

That was my point... I see forehanders stand flat footed and barely more their bodies, but they use like 180 degrees of disc release around the thumb... The disc is literally the main tool.
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Re: Not enough

Postby CatPredator » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:45 am

-yes, the wrist is the guardian of power... but it's like... the primary reason that body power turns into disc power


Right, most people don't capitalize on any of the power they generate with their crazy run ups. The harder they try, the more they exert themselves physically, the more they tense up and the worse it gets, much like Brad's original point and what I've read from you on the boards as well. The force multiplier out at your wrist is soooo large from the length of your arm that you need hardly generate anything with your body if you are efficient.

After figuring this stuff out myself over the last 6 months I've been really pleased. I've only been able to get one or two rounds a week in this winter but...come spring I will put some video up to show my appreciation and results. Maybe film round 2 at BRP with Beto and Eyberg or meet up at Slacker or something if you get out at all this year.

And thanks zj...
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Re: Not enough

Postby Smigles » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:56 am

Bradley Walker wrote:I was watching a forehand thrower play the other day. Not a big thrower. He just threw with a little wrist snap about 300. His arm barely moved.

I thought... WTF... We backhanders have all this arm speed flying around... run ups... etc... For what?


For throwing way over 300 feet ? :D

Yuo can get to 300 with pretty much anything. Any disc, any throw. It's when you want to go way farther than 300 that you need proper technique. Same for sidearm btw, if you want 500 feet sidearms you need to work on technique too.
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Re: Not enough

Postby victorb » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:31 am

Smigles wrote:
Bradley Walker wrote:I was watching a forehand thrower play the other day. Not a big thrower. He just threw with a little wrist snap about 300. His arm barely moved.

I thought... WTF... We backhanders have all this arm speed flying around... run ups... etc... For what?


For throwing way over 300 feet ? :D

Yuo can get to 300 with pretty much anything. Any disc, any throw. It's when you want to go way farther than 300 that you need proper technique. Same for sidearm btw, if you want 500 feet sidearms you need to work on technique too.


How far over 300' are you talking about? I can attest that the arm speed and big run-ups aren't needed to get well over 300'. I slowed down my whole delivery this season, and I'm still getting in the 375-400' range with what feels like minimal effort (with 'slower' discs even). Basic 3 step X-Step and focusing almost entirely on the hit - the last 5% of your throwing motion that Bradley and Blake are talking about here - is still netting me nearly the same distance as I was getting prior to my back injury last fall.
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Re: Not enough

Postby aDave » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:04 am

My best drives always come from the "smooth = far" school.
When I'm hitting it right, folks are always surprised at how little effort I seem to be applying.
It feels like from the first forward step, I'm progressively packing power into the rip until it explodes.
I think that this is in line with almost everything I've read here and I'm sure I'm not adding anything new.
I don't use a run up to the xstep and I'm certainly not athletic. I am a musician though and I think the same "talent" applies.
Being able to pay attention to what your body is doing is a skill that things like the hammer pound and right pec drills can teach.
One of the nice things about forehand is the reduction in complexity of the system. I think that's one of the reasons so many new players start this way.
It's easier to critique.
That's how I started too. Only after reading here and thinking biomechanically about power delivery did I decide to switch focus to BH.
The first month or so sucked since I was much better at FH.
Since I had the experience of learning to play drums I was prepared to suck for a while.

I also have a good bit of teaching experience and there is NO SUBSTITUTE for in person training.
It's possible to get there by reading about technique and trying to go it alone, but it's not easy.

I think that this is something you tech gurus are experiencing. Imagine that every body could get together for a month and do fieldwork every day.
You guys would figure out how to teach it by day 5 and be throwing 600 my the next week.
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Re: Not enough

Postby zj1002 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:23 am

Sean40474 wrote:You have a link to this? I'd like to read it.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19767&hilit=trigger+pull
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Re: Not enough

Postby Bradley Walker » Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:45 am

The disc needs to go fast not the arm.
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Re: Not enough

Postby keltik » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:49 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:The disc needs to go fast not the arm.


there is a lot in that simple statement.

welcome back BW. I know I've missed you.
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Re: Not enough

Postby Sean40474 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 4:51 pm

zj1002 wrote:
Sean40474 wrote:You have a link to this? I'd like to read it.


http://discgolfreview.com/forums/viewto ... igger+pull


Thank you sir, much appreciated.
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