Not enough

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Re: Not enough

Postby JHern » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:37 am

I've been spending time around really long throwers who mostly have no idea why or how it works, but it just does. For them I think it was all about in person training, as aDave was suggesting. The most common in person training we get is playing with better players, and I always noticed that being around long throwers and gauging their timing and form seems to be contagious, and I start to throw longer, too. For newer players reading the threads, this is a great justification for playing higher divisions than your rating would ordinarily suggest, or playing casual skins or doubles with pros who throw far...yeah, you probably won't win money, but you can consider your loss a tuition payment of sorts. I think the right kind of strength training is also important for those of us who aren't usually doing physical work with our hands (e.g., carpentry, painting, hanging drywall, auto mechanic, etc.). Of course we all know about the core, but hand and wrist strength is something that really needs conditioning to power through the right pec and get the most forward bounce.
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Re: Not enough

Postby NoLifeLeft » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:29 pm

JHern wrote:I think the right kind of strength training is also important for those of us who aren't usually doing physical work with our hands (e.g., carpentry, painting, hanging drywall, auto mechanic, etc.). Of course we all know about the core, but hand and wrist strength is something that really needs conditioning to power through the right pec and get the most forward bounce.

I spent a lot of years turning a screwdriver for a living and I've noticed most of the strength built from it is concentrated in my thumb, index, and middle finger. After a hard field session of gripping and ripping the muscles that work my ring finger and to a lesser extent pinky feel the exertion.
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Re: Not enough

Postby JR » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:58 pm

I've recently filmed a micro slip on every stand still throw with Wizards and Leopards. I'm sick and too busy to have been able to test what changed grips do. I don't get disc pivot often. I go in fast and get a slip that has the disc flying in roughly the right direction. The outer joint of my index finger turns the wrong way and i feel it too often. I want to try out taping the joint and supporting the index finger tip area with the middle finger to see if i can avoid joint turning the wrong way making it more difficult to hold on to the disc. At times the over extension of the joint hurts a little.

I was measured to throw at best 87 KPH with sneaking speed steps and late acceleration and 92 KPH with a full force run up. I forgot to turn as much as possible in the reach back so i was only 180 away from the target with the shoulder line. The small difference in top speeds is smaller than with average throws. I think it's very possible that my grip and possibly the index finger over extending and hurting thus unconsciously opening up the grip or the disc just overpowering the not so much in the way of a slip finger print area limits my exit speed.

I think i need to go in slower and also test out more linear less abruptly accelerating late acceleration points to see if i can give my fingers the chance of pivoting the disc properly. Carlsen measured that the exit speed was 40 % generated during the time from the beginning of the wrist extension to the rip IIRC. I don't think i lose that much to long throwers in leg speed and do a little at least in hip explosion. I wouldn't wonder if i miss dozens of feet with the disc slipping and not pivoting properly. IIRC that time contributed 10 % of the final speed for a 110 KPH throw. That player throws Teebirds 600'.

Any ideas as how to avoid index finger outer joint over extension beside slowing down and training finger power?
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Re: Not enough

Postby jaboc83 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:50 am

Bradley you are a genius! It finally clicked for me. I know that this concept has been mentioned countless times by Blake and others on this forum as well as the DGCR forums, but I don't think it was ever really emphasized in such a way that I actually considered it to be my problem. I've always assumed I wasn't pulling close enough, or not stopping the elbow even though it felt like I was, and I was also not understanding why I would feel the weight of the disc so much when I did the Blake's secret technique drills, but when it came to actually throwing I couldn't reproduce it. I realized that when I've actually been throwing I lock up my entire grip instead of just the pivot point which prevents the pivot from actually happening. I always wondered what everyone was talking about with needing a strong grip, because I could whip a disc hard as I wanted to and never have it pop out if I clamped down with a little bit of effort. I just chalked it up to all the years of guitar, bass and drum playing having developed strong wrist and finger muscles. Eventually, I found that if I did not grip until the very last instant (and I mean the last possible instant), that I would kind get what I assumed everyone was talking about; the disc pulled loose of my fingers with a snapping sound. In actual reality I was half slipping the disc out trying to get the noise, but since I was gripping with my thumb and all four fingers equally hard it wasn't pivoting and was really just slowing the disc down right before it came out. Plus, half the time I didn't know which finger would rip last so my accuracy was total shit.

Anyways, after reading Bradley's post I went out yesterday morning to test the new idea of gripping with my index and thumb only; I didn't even include my pinky on the disc and the other two fingers were there simply to help support the disc. like so:

Image

With my very first throw I felt the weight shift I've been missing and I felt the disc pivot around my grip with it and !Bam! it ripped right loose. I threw a 350' line drive with my star Leopard about 6' off the ground using about half of the effort I use to get a sidewinder out that far last fall. Keep in mind that this is in the snow at 18 degrees wearing two layers of clothes, no run-up and with gloves on. On top of that I did it 6 times in a row to the exact same result. The best part is the accuracy; having only one consistent rip point instead of 4 random ones, is obviously SOOOOOO much more accurate. I am completely baffled as to how I never picked up on this before. Thank you for driving it into my skull that one last time.

This should be the week we start to loose some of this snow in MN and hit 50 degrees so it came just in time for me. It's gonna be a good year for disc golf.
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Re: Not enough

Postby MrScoopa » Mon Mar 14, 2011 2:20 pm

JR, I'd try for less wrist coil.

It will give you less fling, but you can get a fuller disc pivot. Wrist coil is determined by how tight you pull, the tension in your wrist, and of course how hard you pull across.

For me it has been a balancing act between those 3 things. As my grip strength increases I'll add more wrist coil. Once I max that I'll add more force to the motions. Keeping the index finger rip with disc pivot is #1. You can get surprising D by pulling wide with a hard, full, pivot.
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