The Secret Technique... almost complete

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby JR » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:59 pm

Swedes have different styles and neither seems proper to any Swede i've seen as such. I'd start the throw with style 2 finishing up with style 1 but getting the elbow straight. What you need to do that is the brace the plant step stopping it in it's place not pivoting on the heel during the pause to get the disc to the right pec position +- something depending on your body.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Mr. Wessels » Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:20 pm

Thanks JR, I will try that!
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby black udder » Fri May 10, 2013 2:11 pm

Happy to see you're still at it Blake! I'll be keeping an eye out for updates. Always great to see you trying to help others get the most of out their disc golf dreams.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby tampora » Sun May 12, 2013 6:32 pm

Someone give Blake a shift key, please!
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby tampora » Sun May 12, 2013 6:43 pm

Blake_T wrote:new/solidified terminologies/concepts

snap - the amount of velocity imparted on the disc relative to the thrower's arm-speed. (it is in fact possible to launch a disc faster than your arm was moving).

power pocket - this involves the area i used to refer to as the "power zone" and begins as the disc passes the right edge of your body. i think the term pocket is a better description since half of the throwing process is loading the pocket and the other half is unloading it.

point of impact - the fully loaded forward position in the power pocket. oddly enough... most throwers don't have a defined point of impact. all long throwers do have a defined point of impact.

active vs. passive unloading of the wrist. achieving a true point of impact is necessary to get the wrist to unload naturally. half-hitting is when there is a passive unload of the wrist (the motion is incidental). full-hitting requires an active unload of the wrist. active unloading is rather tricky since it involves applying force during the unload... yet the unload must begin as an incidental motion, forcing the unload to complete in a stronger/faster manner is necessary for full snap.

slip/micro-slip - once timing is "good," slips and micro-slips become the major concern regarding distance and accuracy. rim width and depth are major limiting factors in consistency. while the variability of slips/micro slips can be reduced as technique improves, the consistency factor is huge during the developing stages. e.g. i've found many players will half hit or better a roc ~80% of the time and half hit or better a nuke ~10% of the time.

dual stage shoulder rotation. there are definitely two distinct rotations... and not one continuous "spin." the first rotation generates momentum to reach the point of impact. the second rotation happens as you unload from the power pocket. if you can't separate these, it's next to impossible to snap a disc.

hyper spin. this technique gets really close to generating hyper spin on almost every throw if it is done correctly.


Unless you're referring to the hand/wrist as NOT being a part of the arm, how is it possible to propel a disc faster than the arm that accelerates it?

From what I've seen, snap has a generally accepted definition referring to 'some particular action' that results in the disc spinning as it leaves your hand. But, by your definition, if my disc leaves my arm at 3mph, but my arm was only moving at 1mph, then I would have a snap value of 3. This would be true even if the disc was not spinning in the least. That's a counter-intuitive definition of 'snap'.

I think the most critical definition that absent from your list is 'the hit'. I've seen you use this term many times, but never truly define it.

You have also defined hyper-spin as a technique that results in hyper-spin when done correctly. That explains nothing.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Stringbean » Sun May 12, 2013 10:10 pm

I think he is saying that the technique used to achieve a full hit will generate hyper-spin on almost every throw. I would consider hyperspin to be achieved at a point where the amount of spin causes the disc to fly more stable than it is rated.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby gretagun » Tue May 14, 2013 8:47 am

I don't think "snap" is defined by simply imparting spin on a disc. You can put a spin on a disc without snapping it at all. Discs can certainly launch at higher speeds than the arm, and this is the point of achieving snap. The force from snap comes from the loading and unloading of the tendons in your wrist. Think about throwing up shots with a putter or mid. Your arm doesn't have to move fast at all, but as long as there is a proper building of tension in the wrist, the disc "ejects" out of your hand at a higher speed than your arm is moving, resulting in a nice line drive shot.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby itlnstln » Tue May 14, 2013 9:00 am

gretagun wrote:I don't think "snap" is defined by simply imparting spin on a disc. You can put a spin on a disc without snapping it at all. Discs can certainly launch at higher speeds than the arm, and this is the point of achieving snap. The force from snap comes from the loading and unloading of the tendons in your wrist. Think about throwing up shots with a putter or mid. Your arm doesn't have to move fast at all, but as long as there is a proper building of tension in the wrist, the disc "ejects" out of your hand at a higher speed than your arm is moving, resulting in a nice line drive shot.


To rephrase this, hyper-spin is an indication of, but not necessarily all of, (good) snap.

When I'm hitting the disc hard, the disc "jumps" out of my hand and I can hear the air displacement as it leaves. This occurs only when my timing is on and keeping my arm somewhat loose providing the proper loading and unloading of the wrist tendons. Fortunately, these days my timing is more "on" than not. This sort of reminds me of the discussions about the popping sound of discs leaving the hand: it doesn't mean there was good snap, just that the acceleration occurred properly (more than likely, anyway, as well as finger orientation, etc.).
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby tampora » Tue May 14, 2013 7:07 pm

I can understand how a baseball leaving a bat can travel faster than the bat which accelerated it. The bat's momentum is imparted to the ball, and, since the ball has less mass to accelerate, it can go faster than the bat.

But in regards to disc golf...
Unless your hand is using the disc to push off against, I still don't see how it is possible that the disc can move faster than the fastest point of your body by using a pulling motion. If it really were possible, then you could hold your arm/hand/wrist/fingers completely motionless and STILL have the disc propel itself out of your hand. That would be quite a sight to see.

I suspect what really is happening is the arm moves at speed X, the wrist at speed Y, and the fingers at speed Z. So, the combined speed is X+Y+Z, but this only happens for the exact moment the arm, wrist, and fingers are all moving in tandem; as Blake might say: "at the hit". Since this moment is so brief, it only seems the disc moves faster than your body does because you really only see the arm movement as the wrist/finger movements have such a short duration.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby itlnstln » Wed May 15, 2013 6:17 am

At the very least, if you hit the disc properly, the disc should be travelling arm speed + wrist speed. If your arm is travelling, say, 50 mph and wrist opens at another 5 mph, then the disc should be travelling at least 55 mph. If the disc slips, then you just get arm speed.

Then there's acceleration and whole bunch of other physics stuff I'm not qualified to talk about.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby JR » Wed May 15, 2013 8:10 pm

Let us suppose that for the sake of illustration there is a player with infinite amount of muscle power so that he can stop the arm in place infinitely quickly. Newton says that an object in motion won't stop without interference. Since there is kinetic energy in the throw that energy will not dissipate just because the arm stops -the energy has to go somewhere. If the player does not grip so hard that the fingers will not bend the disc shall pivot. Then you have the full energy moving only the weight of the fingers and the disc which is way less than the arm or the body. The power to weight ratio goes up while the energy does not go down. It should go up. If the energy stayed constant and the weight goes down what happens?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby tampora » Wed May 15, 2013 9:22 pm

JR wrote:Let us suppose that for the sake of illustration there is a player with infinite amount of muscle power so that he can stop the arm in place infinitely quickly. Newton says that an object in motion won't stop without interference. Since there is kinetic energy in the throw that energy will not dissipate just because the arm stops -the energy has to go somewhere. If the player does not grip so hard that the fingers will not bend the disc shall pivot. Then you have the full energy moving only the weight of the fingers and the disc which is way less than the arm or the body. The power to weight ratio goes up while the energy does not go down. It should go up. If the energy stayed constant and the weight goes down what happens?


I see your using the energy transfer from the arm/wrist to the disc, then using the fact the disc has less mass to equate it to moving faster.

In the example, the Heracles could stop his arm in two different ways. He could 'push off against the disc' to stop his arm. Or, he could use his legs and 'push off against the Earth' to stop his arm. The first method would result in the disc traveling faster than his arm/wrist/fingers due to conservation of energy. But, the second method wouldn't since the energy of the arm being transferred to the Earth and not the disc.

Now, isn't the throwing motion much closer to being a pulling motion, instead of a pushing motion? By pulling, I don't see how 'pushing off against the disc' can occur.

Sorry for keeping this nitpicking alive.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby JR » Wed May 15, 2013 10:00 pm

The arm movement starts out as a pull up to the right pec and continues as a push from then on or a backhand punch. There are two ways of countering the counter force of the arm whip from the right pec out and one is to brace the bag leg or push it forward and the other way is the Feldy kick. One can retard the arm movement from the shoulder socket, elbow and wrist by muscle power. So far it seems that i throw farther when not limiting the shoulder whip and since my elbow does not extend straight due to anatomy i don't need to worry about it. The active stopping attempt of the wrist is doomed to fail but it is the attempt and retarding of the wrist flicking speed that launches the disc pivot from the palm out to rip out from between the index finger and the thumb after about 180-270 (rare) degrees of disc rotation from the right pec position to the rip. You do not need to stop the arm against the disc you stop by arm muscles.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby jubuttib » Sun May 26, 2013 3:46 am

tampora wrote:Unless you're referring to the hand/wrist as NOT being a part of the arm, how is it possible to propel a disc faster than the arm that accelerates it?
Pivot, for one thing.
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Re: The Secret Technique... almost complete

Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:51 pm

jubuttib wrote:
tampora wrote:Unless you're referring to the hand/wrist as NOT being a part of the arm, how is it possible to propel a disc faster than the arm that accelerates it?
Pivot, for one thing.


Yes. It is called "coupling".
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