Realistic expectations

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Realistic expectations

Postby Blake_T » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:17 pm

This is going to come off as a rant but it really isn't. Mainly trying to help guide people.

In the past two years I've come to notice that there's a lot of people trying to beat the natural learning curve for their given athleticism and body awareness.

I'm finding a ton of techniques lately that just aren't right for the people trying to do them... but they did them because "they read that they should do them."

I originally did the hammer drills because anyone can do them, and anyone can apply them. Also, because that level of feel and coordination makes it so much easier for them to develop advanced techniques.

The original License to Drive article on the main site was written in the mid 90's. Gazelle, Cyclone, Polaris LS era. It should supply sufficient information to throw 350'. It did in 2000 when I started, and it should today as well. In actuality, it should teach someone to throw farther than 350.

With the more advanced discussion on snap, arcs, pivots, etc. that has developed over the past few years (and didn't exist until recently), it seems it is steering newer players down the wrong path.
These techniques are just too advanced and require too much coordination and body awareness to where someone who can't throw 350' probably can't do them and attempts to do them will be counter productive.

A few examples:
-A strong heel pivot is the result of a very strong throwing form. A strong heel pivot will not make your throwing form strong.
-The disc pivot is the biproduct of a very defined and strong motion. You should not try to force it to happen by loosening your grip.

What I have been seeing a lot of is the equivalent of someone who started to play basketball 3/6/12 months ago and are now trying to perform hardaway's utep-two-step. if you haven't already mastered dribbling with both hands, you will fail.

What I am finding is that anyone who can hit the standard plateau, e.g. 350-ish teebird power, 380-ish wraith power, etc., is able to pickup the advanced techniques with relative ease and minor retooling.
Those who try to perform the advanced techniques before that plateau, ends up ruining their form into requiring a complete rebuild just to get something decent.

If you aren't there yet, save yourself a headache and work on the basics. When you have those mastered, it's time to move on.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Stringbean » Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:20 am

Thanks for posting this. In regards to the "hit", do you recommend for a beginner (<350) to attempt a "steely stop" or should a beginner simply allow the disc to rip out of the hand passively?
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Blake_T » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:28 pm

For beginners, I would work on having a firm grip and letting the disc rip out. There just hasn't been enough feel/timing developed to try to do the more complicated maneuvers without more experience and the ability to throw 350'+.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby cubeofsoup » Wed Aug 15, 2012 10:46 am

At the 350' level, will the rip generally be a slip or micro slip and not actually a full or even half hit?
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Blake_T » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:10 am

At 350 with a full runup and anything speed 10 or faster, yes it would be a slip. Slower drivers are still a slip, just less of a slip

That is not a terrible thing if you think about it as a building block. If you can throw a beast 350 consistently without snapping it, think about what you can do if you add snap on top of that.

If you dont have the mechanics to throe 350, you almost certainly have timing or body positions that are blocking you... and in these cases they will also block any attempt to snap it. You will have to fix those things before you are ready to snap it.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby cubeofsoup » Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:33 am

My biggest issue is consistency in my mechanics. They aren't automatic yet. On flat ground I have hit 400' a few times, I hit 350' a couple times a round, and mostly I struggle to get past 320'. If I could keep my throw on the proper plane with proper nose angle every time, I would be hitting 350' easily, trouble is I don't know if it is lack of practice or lack of focus that is hurting me.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Indy's broken whip » Wed Aug 15, 2012 12:08 pm

I have similar problems, but I have never been able to throw over 315 feet, usual drives are around 250-275 feet on the field. On the course, everything is usually bit shorter. I almost always throw stand still, but as I'm having trouble of getting the weight shift forward, I have been playing with an idea of doing a very slow x-step to get better rhythm to the throw. As I have major lack of consistency, it's hard to see the possible development. I'm currently going to limit the number of discs I throw at practice, so it's easier to see which part of the differences between a throw is from technique and which from change of disc. There is also so many issues that I know are wrong in my throw, that it's hard to try to correct them all at once. And to know where to start is difficult. For example it would be wasteful to practice heel pivot when I currently can't properly pivot at all...

I would actually be completely satisfied (at least for a while...) if I could just get my consistency up, if I could throw accurately to 80 meters or at least 60 meters with straight, hyzer and anhyser, that would be enough for most practical needs in the courses I play (no more double, triple or quadruple bogeys...) and it would make my game much more relaxed.

It is sometimes quite depressing to hear that some people get over the 300' or even 350' plateua naturally without much effort. I have been playing 3 years now, and reading and practicing quite much... I consider my self above average athletically, but I have recently figured out two problems in my play, which have been visible earlier in my other sport activities also. One is that I tend to go more or less 100%, like as a children, I always sprained my groin in the spring after snow melt, kicking the soccer ball with 100% power after 7 months break. :D Another is that have problem of focusing on the target at the hit, both in soccer and in disc golf, I tend aim based on some spatial awareness instead of really looking at the target when kicking the ball or when throwing the disc. I look at the target before reach back, but I can't get the focus back on the target before the disc has already left the hand. If I try to force it, I get grip locked.

/end moaning and whining
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Mark Ellis » Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:03 am

I am more a fan of UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS.

Without unrealistic expectations we would never ask that pretty girl out. I say shoot for the moon.

None of us know our true potential.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Blake_T » Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:43 pm

Mark,

your post gives me the impression you just like being contrarian with me considering this is basically saying "newer players shouldn't overly nitpick the details," which is what you end up also posting whenever I post something in great detail :P

Basically, it's the equivalent of guys who ask that pretty girl out, she says yes, and then they have no f'n clue what to do after that. When they're a bit more "seasoned" (prepared and confident), asking that girl out works out a lot better if she says yes, since you know how to treat her, where to take her, what to say, etc.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Mark Ellis » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:15 am

Blake_T wrote:Mark,

your post gives me the impression you just like being contrarian with me considering this is basically saying "newer players shouldn't overly nitpick the details," which is what you end up also posting whenever I post something in great detail :P

Basically, it's the equivalent of guys who ask that pretty girl out, she says yes, and then they have no f'n clue what to do after that. When they're a bit more "seasoned" (prepared and confident), asking that girl out works out a lot better if she says yes, since you know how to treat her, where to take her, what to say, etc.


Of course I am a contrarian. :D You are a new wave, high tech scientist. I am an uneducated, old school traditionalist. I don't understand half of what you say so I argue about things hoping it will draw out explanations that make sense to me. I also figure that if something goes over my head it does the same for others and the discussion will help the wider reader base. Heck, I might even learn something.

My comments on this thread were non sequiturs. I was just responding to the label of the thread.

Back to Realistic Expectations. Some folks have good, natural athletic skills. They start with power and speed and coordination and grace and balance. I stated with none of these things and had school age coaches who saw no future in me. They had realistic expectations for me. When I started Disc Golf my skill set was limited and I showed little promise. My development as a player came only because I rejected realistic expectations.

So yeah, I asked the pretty girl out. I wasn't sure what to do when she said yes. But I figured it out. :lol:
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Jeronimo » Wed Aug 22, 2012 8:49 am

HEY. There's only room for one contrarian in this town Mr. Ellis... 8)
I am dumb.

...and a drama queen.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby Wyno » Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:34 pm

Mark Ellis wrote:I am an uneducated, old school traditionalist. (...)
I started with none of these things and had school age coaches who saw no future in me. They had realistic expectations for me. When I started Disc Golf my skill set was limited and I showed little promise. My development as a player came only because I rejected realistic expectations.
So yeah, I asked the pretty girl out. I wasn't sure what to do when she said yes. But I figured it out. :lol:


Mark, first let me say I'm all for contrarians :-) but there is an irony here and my inner contrarian forces me to point it out: Your school teachers were "old school traditionalists" as well! After all, the traditional view is to put too much emphasis on natural talent and too little on willpower, motivation and practice. A more "New wave" kind of view could be: If you are willing to invest at least 10 000 hours of practice (of your own free will) you can become great in most anything.
Your own development as a player most probably came because you put in the hours, no?
Expecting to be brilliant without hours of practice, now that is unrealistic! And it will often lead to disappointment and loss of motivation.

To stretch that rapidly disintegrating metaphor even further: (The problem with unrealistic expectations is) You date the girl, it doesn't work out the way you expected, and you don't invite any more girls out 'cause you think "I've tried and failed, this is not for me" :-)
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby MikeyDays » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:32 am

I agree with Blake. The problem is that no beginners have the insight so they have no clue especially when it comes to buying a disc and the proper way to throw. I see it at my local disc shop all the time.
Then you get intermediate players like me who want to get better and are just finding out how wrong they have been doing everything since they started.
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby masterbeato » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:50 pm

Wyno wrote:
Mark Ellis wrote:I am an uneducated, old school traditionalist. (...)
I started with none of these things and had school age coaches who saw no future in me. They had realistic expectations for me. When I started Disc Golf my skill set was limited and I showed little promise. My development as a player came only because I rejected realistic expectations.
So yeah, I asked the pretty girl out. I wasn't sure what to do when she said yes. But I figured it out. :lol:


Mark, first let me say I'm all for contrarians :-) but there is an irony here and my inner contrarian forces me to point it out: Your school teachers were "old school traditionalists" as well! After all, the traditional view is to put too much emphasis on natural talent and too little on willpower, motivation and practice. A more "New wave" kind of view could be: If you are willing to invest at least 10 000 hours of practice (of your own free will) you can become great in most anything.
Your own development as a player most probably came because you put in the hours, no?
Expecting to be brilliant without hours of practice, now that is unrealistic! And it will often lead to disappointment and loss of motivation.

To stretch that rapidly disintegrating metaphor even further: (The problem with unrealistic expectations is) You date the girl, it doesn't work out the way you expected, and you don't invite any more girls out 'cause you think "I've tried and failed, this is not for me" :-)


That's the almighty X-Factor (Chaos Theory) isn't it? In which something can not be measured. i agree Mr. Wyno!

General realistic expectations in this thread is learning by the "book", the great fundamentals before going for that frustrating path of trial and error in the realm of advanced technique. If you want this game to be a sport, then treat it like a sport. There should be a serious, fundamental notion everybody has inside they're head on some basic, advanced level in technique where everybody doesn't think they are "correct" about everything, like Golf, or Basketball, or Baseball etc. That's discipline.

A lot of people that actually take it seriously come to think of this sport as just throwing a Frisbee around, so there's no correct or wrong way of doing it except for the way that works best for them. Just like when I thought of this sport when I first started. For throwing a Frisbee around they're right, but for throwing a Frisbee around super far and accurately takes discipline, and simply thinking that there are no rules to abide by to become a super far and accurate thrower of the Frisbee is simply incorrect.

That's what we attempt here, building a structure around an already existing structure that exists in other sports, and make one for this one!
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Re: Realistic expectations

Postby masterbeato » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:53 pm

That's what anybody tries to do when I look at video's in the past and present, or articles or whatever. Mr. Ellis has done some of those himself.
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