Hammer vs. the Rail

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:01 pm

earlier this year when i discovered the rail method i was a bit disappointed since i felt like the two years spent on the hammer method was sort of obsolete. after a couple of months of lessons with the rail method i realized that the hammer wasn't so much obsolete as it was a stepping stone.

both methods are capable of achieving positive results and they basically do the same thing but in a slightly different way.

Image


The largest difference between them is the role of the wrist. the hammer basically teaches you to "slam the wrist open" to get the edge around. the rail uses the shape of your path to get the edge around and while there is some wrist movement, it is minor.

as a training tool, the hammer is more valuable since it teaches you how to control the disc's weight shift and how the arm moves independently of the shoulder (while the rail doesn't provide similar indicators).

in both cases, your basic goal is to get the purple shaded section of disc to the front.
Blake_T
Super Sekret Technique Jedi
 
Posts: 5824
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby turso » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:07 pm

What made you think the Rail is superior to the Hammer? Was it easier for the students to digest?
Frank Delicious wrote:Every groove is a unique snowflake of suck.


NOS, PD, River, Roc3, Comet, Trident, Mercy, JOKERi, XXX
turso
Steward Turkeylink: This ranks means I can't read or follow basic directions
User avatar
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:45 pm
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Favorite Disc: My first putter

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby BrotherDave » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:12 pm

So with the Beto rail, does your arm straighten out later or sooner compared to the hammer pound diagram?
Some discs of various sizes, weight, plastic and mold.
BrotherDave
Blue-footed booby fan
User avatar
 
Posts: 1340
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Surrounded by Boobies.
Favorite Disc: DX Blue Footed Booby

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:35 pm

The rail has more power potential if done correctly.

A good throw is basically throwing the angular velocity of the edge coming around in the forward direction. The throw itself is a series of arcs. When timed correctly, the small arcs build speed and complete the larger arc with a longer radius than it started with.

Basically, you get an exponential growth of angular velocity by increasing the radius of the arc.

The rail ends up with a larger arc radius than the hammer.

BD: that's not so much the focal point as the timing of the force and acceleration of the disc while it straghtens. The hammer basically brings a lot of the force into the wrist extension and your goal is to hang onto the disc through the extension. The rail carries all the force until release.

When your arm straightens is not a static thing in either throw. It varies based upon your speed, wrist bend, angle of entry, etc. having it happen "when it should," given those variables is more important than trying to designate a fixed idea to something that will change from throw to throw and person to person.
Blake_T
Super Sekret Technique Jedi
 
Posts: 5824
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Thu Oct 18, 2012 4:43 pm

That is the most illustrative picture from you so far so applause!!! Am i right in thinking that the rail requires more grip strength to hold on to the disc for a full disc pivot and hit? I imagine the larger radius also increases the left to right movement speed of the arm. So deviating even more from the back to front movement of the disc in degrees between those two directions at the rip.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11439
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby keltik » Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:10 pm

I think I've felt both. for me the hammer is good for straight shots. the rail is better for shaped shots and full power. but that is just me. the rail is also easier on my elbow, if I'm thinking about this correctly.
keltik
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 3382
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:12 pm
Location: High Point NC
Favorite Disc: Polecat!! Ò.ó

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:04 pm

if timed correctly, the rail requires much LESS grip strength to hang on. if timed incorrectly, it's impossible to hold on.

the hammer only requires grip strength during the final wrist arc, but it requires a ton of it to really apply force to the disc.

for the most part, the hammer teaches people to HALF HIT. however, if the feeling of generating the half hit is familiar, converting to the rail for a full hit is a lot easier.

the hammer also requires more precise positions to really deliver force. the rail's force change by missing ideal positions are logarithmic, but it's variance is on a smaller magnitude than the hammer when it misses its positions.

that being said, the hammer is about 10X easier to feel than the rail, which is why i'm still using it as a teaching method. it's sort of a pre-requisite for the rail, since i have found teaching people the rail out of the gate is next to impossible since the feel is too unfamiliar.
Blake_T
Super Sekret Technique Jedi
 
Posts: 5824
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:06 pm

also, the beto rail is the most extreme version of this. using a more traditional U shaped rail is a lot easier than dan's backwards R shape since the radius doesn't increase nearly as much, but at the same time, it is lower power potential.
Blake_T
Super Sekret Technique Jedi
 
Posts: 5824
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby Blake_T » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:08 pm

one last note... in both diagrams, all of those positions are pretty much happening with minimal (if any) shoulder movement. the secondary shoulder rotation doesn't happen until the disc is leaving in the last point in the diagram.

to re-state it differently: the shoulder is basically pointed at the target for almost all of the positions in both diagrams.

this is what i mean when i say "there's times where the arm leads the shoulder"
Blake_T
Super Sekret Technique Jedi
 
Posts: 5824
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 12:44 am
Location: Minneapolis

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:47 pm

I've seen Schusterick, Jenkins and Feldy at least throw so that the shoulders turn extremely late. So the kinetic chain is odd because the elbow chops before the second part of the shoulder rotation. Or rather the chain is unbroken and accelerationvis guided to occur in the latest possible time and the sequence is unlike the old school down to up model. With the elbow chop jumping to before the secondary shoulder rotation in the order of events. But to move the disc in a straight line to almost the end of the arm movement with the right side facing the target also means that the hips and legs fire way way late so perhaps the proper sequence for those guys is whatever happens to prior the pause, pause, elbow chop, rear leg push/right leg pivot, hips twisting, shoulders turning, wrist snapping and the disc pivoting. IIRC Sandström threw with a very long pause during which the arm got fairly forward before the legs etc. fired just not that much elbow lead for him at the 40 pictures at 6 megapixels burst that lcgm8 converted to a video of the Scandinavian Open 2010.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11439
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby soupdeluxe » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:15 am

I can definatly feel the differece between the two. The hammer is alot harder for me to hold on to and feels like it happens more out front, more moving parts? The rail feels much smoother, I can hold on longer and the follow through feels more right to left than out front. The rail really sets you up for the edge around throw nicely. I seem to get more spin on the disc with the rail as I notice when the disc lands you can tell it is still spinning. Great stuff. Thanks
SD
soupdeluxe
Noob
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:29 pm
Favorite Disc: XD

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby soupdeluxe » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:18 am

Should have proof read better. I ment left to right on the previous post.
SD
soupdeluxe
Noob
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:29 pm
Favorite Disc: XD

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby keltik » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:41 am


this is an advertisement for Legacy Discs but it showcases Steve Rico's throwing motion quite well. His mechanics appear flawless. he shows shoulder pause perfectly. but my question is: is he throwing on a rail or the hammer/whip motion?
keltik
2010 DGR Donator
User avatar
 
Posts: 3382
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:12 pm
Location: High Point NC
Favorite Disc: Polecat!! Ò.ó

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby BrotherDave » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:04 pm

Where is the shoulder pause exactly? (in that Rico video) I don't see any pause. *confused* It just looks like the shoulder leads the throw in a continuous motion.
Some discs of various sizes, weight, plastic and mold.
BrotherDave
Blue-footed booby fan
User avatar
 
Posts: 1340
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:06 pm
Location: Surrounded by Boobies.
Favorite Disc: DX Blue Footed Booby

Re: Hammer vs. the Rail

Postby JR » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:03 am

I'd like to see a thrower drawn in the same detail in the Beto/is suspect Voigt rail and a top down vid of Dan.

It is more than a shoulder pause it is more like a leg and torso pause with the arm moving back to front from the shoulder socket and pushing the elbow forward. That kind of pause with Steve is roughly from when the front disc reaches his left side to when the rear of the disc is by his right side. The lead shoulder is not moving in a rotational manner all the time.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11439
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Next

Return to Technique

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest