Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby markmcc » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:54 pm

I am new to Disc Golf and to this board, so go easy on me!! I am 52 years old and started playing this summer. After much reading on this board I've gravitated to Leopards as drivers and am getting 250' typically, so I'm no distance monster.

Based on what I've read here I decided to get a couple of Comets and practice shorter shots to help my form. I am currently in South Texas where wind is a constant. During my practice evenings the wind is typically 10-20 mph. With the wind at my back I get smooth, straight throws, but when I throw into the wind the Comets turn over badly and finish way right (RHBH). If I start them on a moderate hyzer they will usually flatten and fly straight. BTW - I also practice with a Buzzz and a Roc, and these exhibit some of this same behavior, but to significantly lesser degrees.

So my question - Is this the expected behavior or does it point to a flaw in my technique?

Thanks,

Mark
markmcc
Noob
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm
Favorite Disc: Buzzz

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby Monocacy » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:49 pm

markmcc wrote:So my question - Is this the expected behavior or does it point to a flaw in my technique?

A little of both, probably, but it is tough to throw Comets into the wind. Your Roc or Buzzz should stand up to a headwind pretty well. If not, try to figure out what part of your throw is off-plane.

When you can throw a Comet into the wind, you know your form is really good!

Edit: reading comprehension fail.
Krait - Tern | Jackal - River - Resistor | Truth - Fuse - Zone | Clutch
Discs for sale or trade
Monocacy
Fairway Surgeon
User avatar
 
Posts: 550
Joined: Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:05 pm
Location: Maryland
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby allsport1313 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:06 pm

Some discs fight wind better than others so that's not too hard to believe. It's hard to know for sure the source without a video though, you may be throwing nose up or something. I'm in south Texas too, the wind is indeed a constant factor but I have a lot of trust in my Rocs, and disc up/down whenever necessary.
allsport1313
Tree Magnet
 
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:19 pm
Favorite Disc: plastic

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby bents » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:26 pm

Comets turn over a lot at high speeds, more so than rocs or buzzes. (ie, comets are understable.)

The speed in question is the speed of the disc relative to the air around it. So if you throw 30 mph into a 15 mph headwind, it will turn over as if you threw it 45 mph in still air.

It might be that you have off-axis torque (OAT) which makes everything turn over a bit right out of your hand. This is a really common problem that a lot of people get from throwing discs that are too overstable for their throwing speed. They throw an overstable disc with OAT and it looks good to them because it makes an S-curve. The problem is that OAT is hard to predict and control and it's usually a bad idea.

Good form limits this turn over in two ways: first, less OAT is good. Second, good form means better snap and more spin, and more spin means gyroscopic resistance to turnover and fade.

For example, my form isn't that good, and I don't have excellent snap, and I can't throw comets at all! If I give them any muscle they turn right over. I just use my putter for shots that are short enough to use a comet. Rocs work better for me.
Champion Teebird, Star TL, Buzzz, Wizard, Aviar
bents
Noob
User avatar
 
Posts: 54
Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:13 pm
Favorite Disc: champion teebird

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby markmcc » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:58 pm

Thanks for the comments. Playing in South Texas has really helped my "wind game" as it often blows 15 - 25 mph here.

I've been doing a lot of practice with my two Z-Comets, as well as a beat up Buzzz and a Roc. I can tell that the Roc is more stable, and the Buzzz was, but it seems to be getting about as unstable as the Comets. It is pretty well chewed up though.

With still air or a following wind I can get good straight flights out of the Comets. In still air I release on a very slight hyzer line (say 8:30) and it straightens right up and flies. Into a headwind I can get relatively straight flights with more of a hyzer release (7:30 - 8:00). If I do it right it will flatten out and fly well. If I try to muscle it I get the right-hand turn that just keeps on going. I'm practicing mostly at distances of 100 - 175 feet which is helping me to clean up my form.

When I do go out to play a round I can tell that my drives with the Leopard and Teebird are cleaner and going farther, so the mid-range work seems to be helping. Now if I can learn to putt in these winds...

Mark
markmcc
Noob
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm
Favorite Disc: Buzzz

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby Mark Ellis » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:01 pm

So I have a Comet/Wind story.

I used to think that Comets were incapable of fighting wind, no matter the skill or precision of the player...

Michigan was hosting the World Championships in 2000 (the first ever Pro and Am Worlds combined) and I was one of the poor fools in charge of running the event. We dropped in a temporary course adjacent to Hudson Mills (Ann Arbor) to deal with the darn near 1000 players coming to the event. A couple weeks before the event my buddy Ron Russell (defending World Champ at the time) came into town and called me to get a tour of the new course. So we went out one day, just the two of us and played the new course. The winds were SCREAMING that day.

For pure entertainment I proposed a series of bets, fully knowing I had no realistic chance of winning, including a CTP on every hole. This course was mostly a short, deuce or die course. I was throwing Firebirds and Crushes (very overstable wind fighters) and was as hot and lucky as I could be. Ron threw Comets mostly with occasional Cyclones here and there on holes he had never seen before. I was parking stuff and secretly thrilled at my performance ( I refused to let on how shocked I was at my own shots). But Ron was edging me out, time after time, throwing Comets into the wind. I think I won one CTP for the day.

This is what I learned. If you can throw a disc pure enough it is possible to control Comets into the wind.

Of course, as you have all already learned, if you can't throw a clean, flat, pure line then even an overstable disc won't do much more than minimize the damage in big wind.
Mark Ellis
The Big Fundamental
User avatar
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:32 pm
Location: Brighton, Michigan
Favorite Disc: Rattler

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby markmcc » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:16 pm

The most stable disc that I own right now is a Teebird, and I am resisting getting anything more stable as I don't want to use that as a crutch while I am trying to learn basics. When throwing into a stiff wind I release the Teebird on just a bit of a Hyzer line (8:30) and it flies ok. I suppose that my relatively low power (250' - 260' on a typical no-wind drive) helps me to make this work.

I don't know if that is a good idea or not. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark
markmcc
Noob
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm
Favorite Disc: Buzzz

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby JHern » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:53 pm

As Mark Ellis noted, it is indeed possible to throw straight controlled shots into the wind with a Comet. But you cannot have any wobble at all or it will surely flip over. If you have no wobble at all, it will not flip over. Make sure you are flinging the disc forward through its center, instead of trying to rip it forward, and focus on that smooth feeling through the release, you'll get it eventually and you'll be a much better golfer for it.
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2620
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby JR » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:33 pm

In calm weather i've thrown an ESP Comet flat without any turning to 330' for my record. So more than 175' without flipping is possible with Comets that are on the most overstable edge in the spectrum of stability. Comets are super fussy about leaving the hand cleanly and being one of the most difficult discs to get out cleanly. The bead can scrape along the fingers and it will wobble and flip the disc. It is possible that a grip change is needed and at least you should not grip the comet as hard as you do a driver. Although pinching hard with the index finger and the thumb during the disc pivot seems to be ok for me. Late acceleration can help a ton too for shorter ranges especially.

Overstable discs that fly straight or anny at first and end up left after an obstacle has been avoided are useful and the ability to read the distance the disc needs to fly before fading and giving the disc that power are all equally real and needed skills that need to be developed as throwing straight with neutral or understable discs.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11491
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby JHern » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:15 am

Agree with JR. Try a fan grip, and see if that helps, like this:

Image
Japan bag...
Drivers: Starlite Wraith (158g), Gummy Champion Leopard (150g), 1st Run Z-Talon (150g)
Mid-Range: Star Classic Roc (146g), R-Pro Roc (157g)
Putt/Approach: Legacy Protege Clozer (158g), Glow DX Aviar (150g)
JHern
Please ask me about my insider info on pros! Oh GOD please ask me!
User avatar
 
Posts: 2620
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:50 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Favorite Disc: Clutch

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby PMantle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:04 am

My Comet is taking a break. I just never figured out what it was best at. Especially after I figured out how far my putters fly.
PMantle
Fairway Surgeon
 
Posts: 764
Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:11 am
Location: Alexandria, La.
Favorite Disc: Pure

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby Mark Ellis » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:11 am

markmcc wrote:The most stable disc that I own right now is a Teebird, and I am resisting getting anything more stable as I don't want to use that as a crutch while I am trying to learn basics. When throwing into a stiff wind I release the Teebird on just a bit of a Hyzer line (8:30) and it flies ok. I suppose that my relatively low power (250' - 260' on a typical no-wind drive) helps me to make this work.

I don't know if that is a good idea or not. Thoughts?

Thanks,

Mark


As a contrarian it is my duty to advise you to try everything: :D overstable, understable, even (horrors!) wide rimmed. Try them all and see how they work and how to manipulate them. Watch what the good players are doing and what they do it with and mirror them as much as you are able.

Golf is about making adjustments. You must adjust to the conditions, the weather, the lines of the course. You must adjust to the discs you have today and the ones you will have tomorrow. The sooner you start developing those skills the faster you will learn them.

Overstable discs are not evil, nor are wide rimmed drivers so long as you do not use them exclusively. They will not harm your form or hold you back from your potential. Try to learn to make any disc in your bag fly flat and true in the middle of its flight (how it finishes is a function of its stability) then memorize that form and touch so you can repeat it. Once you can throw flat and straight you have mastered one of the most important skills in the game.

Good players carry discs in the full range of stability. Eventually you will too. Today is a good day to start.
Mark Ellis
The Big Fundamental
User avatar
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:32 pm
Location: Brighton, Michigan
Favorite Disc: Rattler

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby markmcc » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:36 pm

Mark-

Thanks for the advice. Gives me an excuse to buy/try a few more discs!

In the wind down here I was thinking about getting a more stable midrange for shots into a strong headwind. There have been times that I needed a dependable fade at the end and just couldn't count on it with my current understable discs.

I should correct myself and say that the most overstable disc I have is a 175 gr Zone. That thing won't go right at all and is absolutely dependable as far as finishing left. In bad headwinds it is dependable but I can't get it to fly as far as the Roc/Buzzz type discs.

So much to learn...

mark
markmcc
Noob
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm
Favorite Disc: Buzzz

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby andrew » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:36 pm

I've only field tested one Comet, but I did notice some turn into a relatively mild headwind. My guess is form is to blame for them turning into strong headwinds in the same way it is for not being able to throw a Valk 500 feet. There is a lot to learn from a Champion Teebird. It handles wind well while being more stable (straight) than overstable. If you're getting a ton of fade or if an unbeaten one is hitting the ground with no fade on a max throw you know you aren't throwing it at its full potential.

All this to say you seem to be on the right track, OP.
Wizards/Jokeri/Fuse/Buzzz/Gator/XLs/Teebirds/XXX/PDs

Disc Golf (n): A game in which a round plastic object is thrown into trees until it is beat in to resemble its preferred flight characteristics, at which point it is thrown into a lake.
andrew
Tree Magnet
User avatar
 
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:47 pm
Favorite Disc: PPD

Re: Comets into the wind - Turning Over

Postby markmcc » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:45 pm

I have a Champ Leopard that is my "normal" driving disc, but I also have a Champ Teebird that I use when there is significant headwind or if I need to finish a bit more left than straight. I am getting a lot of good info from this thread, so thanks to all for helping me along.

Mark
markmcc
Noob
 
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 7:50 pm
Favorite Disc: Buzzz

Next

Return to Technique

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest