Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

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Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby archimedesjs » Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:08 pm

I'm familiar with the plateaus, and have worked my way through most of them. What is the major difference maker that separates the 500' guys from everyone else? Does it just come down to build/athleticism, or is there still more to be gleamed from technique?

The issue I have is that I've only seen one person throw over 500' without wind assistance, and he was built like a tank. Not only that, it took him about 15 throws to do it. I rarely see guys who are actually hitting 400', let alone 450'+. I'm a skeptic when it comes to distance. I want to know what is realistic to achieve, and what is actually being achieved. There is too much heresay, and not enough actual proof. I don't doubt they exist, but even in the distance comps, the numbers aren't consistently over 500' from the big names.

Long story short, I'm trying to determine if I'm spinning my wheels looking for more distance through technique tweaks, or if at this point it just comes down to building more fast-twitch muscle tissue. I would really like to hear from Blake, or Dan on this one.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby JR » Sat Jul 12, 2014 2:11 am

The biggest names can be expected to break 500' in every competition if the wind does not play havoc.

I have seen lean mean tendony somewhat muscular but not at all weight lifter looking guys throw 550' in a golf competition. Then there is Lizotte who throws stupid far this year after having developed noticeably more muscles from last year when he absolutely ripped despite being scrawny then. Every top distance thrower now is in good shape even Lizotte with his favorable body type. Lean with thin long arms and fairly long legs. Not far from optimal that guy. I wonder how off shaped Stokely really was. He might have downplayed his condition some. It did not hurt being closer to seven than six feet tall.

Not being able to throw 500' i cannot say from experience but i assume it does not hurt to train technique and muscle power and speed. Video of current form please.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby archimedesjs » Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:44 am

http://youtu.be/hfdAKcpQJPc

This isn't my normal golf throw, but it's all I have on my phone at the moment. It went about 470', without any wind. I haven't done a good recording session in quite a while, I think I may do that this weekend, and I'll put up some quality videos for analysis.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby Stringbean » Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:35 pm

Try sending a PM to Mike C. He was stuck at 450 for awhile and seems to have made the jump to 500. Blake might respond to a PM but he hasn't posted in quite awhile.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby JR » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:31 am

Your plant step dropped into a small hole so it is hard to say what a flat land throw would be like. Distance throws are not necessarily like golf shots anyway so i would not worry about it. As long as you use an accurate consistent form on the course where ripping it does not offer a chance for a lower score.

you pre curled the wrist were you trying to train for a wrist snap? Then it might be ok otherwise not necessarily. Some can make it work and the plyometric loading is better but for many the extra wiggling loosens the grip and tilts the angles etc. So ymmv. For all out d when you get the wiggling working it is ok. When you get it consistent it is fine on the course but it is an advanced difficulty move that does not work for many.

You did not reach back fully because your head did not turn away enough restricting shoulder turn.

Your reach back went to behind your torso and if it were possible to move in a straight line with the disc it would dissect you. There are lots of opinions on this. The most common view on rounding is that it is bad. I agree from the point of view of accuracy and consistency. From a power generation perspective the issue is more complicated.

Ime the accuracy form where the disc moves close to both pecs in a straight line the power is less compared to rounding up to the left pec then a straight line to the rip or the Voigt style. Which reaches back well off the left pec moving close the right pec with the body oriented differently and steps moving into a different direction. The direction is toward front left instead of a straight line. And the back and head are oriented more toward the left so that the arm can move in a straight line.

The more muscular throwers especially can keep the bicep especially but also the whole arm looser thus faster. It is easier for less limber people to bend the elbow tighter for a more explosive snap too.

Rounding first then finishing in a straight line is less consistent and accurate than accuracy form but just like the Voigt form there is more body weight shift in the left to right turning. This form achieves more weight shift early and Voigt form late. Force equals mass times acceleration so the later acceleration is better from the physics pov. From an execution pov the semi rounding form has the easy acceleration so early that the brain is not easily overworked so the finish guidance and aiming is not that bad once you get used to it. You can aim visually with this form. Which gets excessively hard for spectacle users especially with the Voigt form.

I would check out the Voigt form and the accuraxy form plus your semi rounding form for distance now and work on the latter two to ensure a tight bent elbow for good elbow lead at the right pec position. Remembering not to push the elbow ahead as far as it can. An inch or more short of that is mandatory to avoid serious pain and probable serious injury from the elbow locking bent and the momentum forcing the arm straight anyway. That can mash the the arm tendons and muscles.

There should be more d in the form changes for you. Of course training for a faster stronger body helps too.

I viewed the video on a mobile phone with a minimal video so i may have missed something. You might have been a little too close to flat footed.

Mike made form changes with pretty similar basics type of adjustments to get to 500' from where you are now.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby archimedesjs » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:22 pm

Here is a better quality video of my distance driving technique. I have a broken ring finger on my throwing hand, so I'm using a more "fanny" grip. I'm splaying my fingers out more than usual on the bottom of the flight plate, and utilizing a lot of thumb pressure. To be honest, I don't even remember how to throw with a power grip. Would that sap distance from a drive? I vaguely remember GG saying that he uses a 2-finger grip when he's unconcerned about accuracy, and only worried about distance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHDUo9dhbzM
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby seabas22 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:33 pm

Several distance throwers use a fan grip, I think a true four finger power grip is actually rare in top distance as many use 3 or 2 fingers as well as the fan. You have running speed but your posture is collapsing like a lawn chair(almost face planting) during the throw so it's not being transferred very efficiently. Watch the difference in the finish, Ken keeps his rear leg behind his braced front leg and is completely upright in posture, where you are hunched over and spinning out. Also watch how the front foot glides/strides forward just over the ground and doesn't lift up off the ground high like yours because you lean back away so far from the target. Also note how slow he moves forward in the x-step, and doesn't move too far forward in the finish so he's transferred that energy into the disc forward instead.

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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby niq » Mon Jul 14, 2014 6:38 pm

this was a good post from blake as far as the distance competitions go (I just so happened to be re-reading this thread the other day so I remember this):

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=13291&start=90#p188815
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby JR » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:45 pm

Expanding on what seabas22 wrote you should stop the right leg in place a little longer so that you can get the elbow more forward being the closest part of your body to the target prior to straightening the elbow. But first you just gotta lift the ball of the foot higher up to avoid twisting your joints. Additionally when you move the reach back about a foot left of where most of them were you could start the disc in a straight line which along with longer harder bracing and getting the elbow to lead the throw properly adds to snap. By bending the elbow tighter stretching the tendons and catapulting the elbow and the wrist past the right pec position.

The rear leg should be either planted at the rip (hard at high speeds) or the Feldy kick meaning swinging like a door on hinges at not much more height than the right knee maintaining height once the top height has been acheived. Not kicking up for a low line drive. Raising only if the disc is thrown high too. The left leg Feldy kick should be parallel to the arm height.

I would not apply a lot of finger pressure early in the throw. It is fine late in the throw though. Fan widely and you tighten the upper forearm muscles in the upper part especially which slows down the arm swing. So at least for dry warm weather a two finger grip is fine given enough finger strength. Which is not automatic so ymmv.

Not bracing enough and not having the leg down long or matching the arm in a Feldy kick hinders twisting the hips right which saps power. There is real distance available with this so bracing is a foundation to more than one power generation improvement making it crucial.

You are adept at finging holes to step into in the videos :-D Tilting the camera made things even harder.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby archimedesjs » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:41 am

A few points I'd like a little clarity on. First, what do you mean by getting the ball of my foot higher? Second, you said to move the reach back a foot left...left from which perspective?

With these adjustments, how much distance could conceivably be gained?
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby archimedesjs » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:52 am

While I am not comparing myself to Lizotte, or Wiggins, I do notice that they are NOT up, and down at the hit. They are bent over, whether throwing a hyzer, or flat. What they don't do, is spin out after like myself. I believe that is due to me not timing the out motion, nor bracing correctly(like you mentioned). I see what was meant about gliding my plant leg forward in time with the elbow. The other thing I notice is that Lizotte seems to use what I call a "wrist waggle" to be able to time the out motion of the hit better. What I had been trying to do was keep my arm as straight as possible, I'll be getting some field work in later this week when the rain eases up, and will be posting more videos.

(Videos I was referring to)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpICK3NSQb0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzzSVt1jTqQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-29KBRCWNI
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby Stringbean » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:01 am

I think you definitely have the ability to add more distance through technique changes but don't look for instant success. Right now it looks like you are muscling it out to 475. Changing your throwing style will probably hurt your distance now but give you much more potential distance in the long term.

I think JR is referring to your foot pivot when he mentioned getting the ball of your foot higher. Your weight should be on your heel... lifting the front of your foot in the air will make sure of this. A full foot pivot is critical because it allows the rest of your body to rotate freely without the risk of torquing your knee or jamming your hips. Your brain will instinctively hold back to avoid injury, a full foot pivot will allow you to accelerate 100% through the hit and into the follow through.

Moving the reach back a foot to the left would be to fix the rounding. Play with an in-out-in pull through.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby seabas22 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:56 pm

archimedesjs wrote:While I am not comparing myself to Lizotte, or Wiggins, I do notice that they are NOT up, and down at the hit. They are bent over, whether throwing a hyzer, or flat. What they don't do, is spin out after like myself. I believe that is due to me not timing the out motion, nor bracing correctly(like you mentioned). I see what was meant about gliding my plant leg forward in time with the elbow. The other thing I notice is that Lizotte seems to use what I call a "wrist waggle" to be able to time the out motion of the hit better. What I had been trying to do was keep my arm as straight as possible, I'll be getting some field work in later this week when the rain eases up, and will be posting more videos.

(Videos I was referring to)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpICK3NSQb0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzzSVt1jTqQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-29KBRCWNI


They are all bracing in upright dynamic posture, just different axis. Watch Marc's anhyzer vs hyzer:


Doesn't get much more upright than this in the finish:


I believe JR is talking about a wide reachback, out, in, out with the disc. The elbow stays out more forward and away from the chest.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby JR » Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:17 am

For some reason i could not get these videos to show directly on this site.

Well officially fuck me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation ... z5Tgbgdt94

11 year old girl rounding to such speed. Great bracing. At least she kept the rear leg down until after the disc had ripped out.

Some lean over the disc with flat shots but Wiggins especially needs to hyzer the disc steeply with the disc flipping a lot at a lot of height. Some say they get better snap leaning over the disc so you should test it for yourself.

I did mean the heel pivot by getting the ball of the foot up into the air. It is asking for trouble to keep so much of the shoe down on the ground.

The Voigt style demonstrated by Bradley Walker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM11kxGJ ... MHdYRzs-rw
I highly recommend to attempt straight line arm pull straight running at the target accuracy form vs semi rounding vs Voigt style. Throwing in the Feldy kick as well to each of those to see what works best for you. That is for golf desperation or wide open hole guts or glory shots. For distance comps a 360 would be more appropriate. I i forgot to mention that there is another distance form called the double pivot. There the x step left leg pivots on the ball of the foot and the plant step pivots on the heel. Some arcing in the running direction is needed most likely. The semi rounding works here too but so does the Voigt style reach back too. in difficulty and power generation the double pivot is superior for me to the Voigt style by a fraction semi rounded. YMMV. I did not bother to learn Voigt reach back with the double pivot because it is not an accuracy form limiting visual aiming chances. I am not saying that is impossible it is just very hard and the added complexity and not moving constantly at he target all the time is not helping accuracy and consistency. Even on dry grippy surfaces. It needs some physical condition to be able to pull off the balance and timing with the double pivot with even some chances of a success for golfing and ok results in D comps. Where a 360 has more potential anyhow. It may not be a bad idea to start off a D comp with a double pivot to get a result then go pressure free balls out with a 360. If that works then 720 :-D

Note the non optimal flat footed plant step with Bradley which you should avoid. Some move even more diagonally in the steps and turn more away from the target with the back so it is more like a mini 360. Those guys need to reach back to even farther toward the left side of the tee pad looking from behind the tee at the target. So i recommend experimenting differently angled running directions with the reach back moving more toward the left the more diagonally you run. That is even better for those with large pecs and biceps who are not limber. That way the disc is well farther awy from the left pec than Bradley had loosening up the arm muscles and probably the pec too.

Lizotte is not only timing the movements with the wrist waggle but actually creating more snap by stretching the arm tendons and muscles with the waggling prior to the wrist snap shooting the wrist right at added speed compared to regular snap without the Doss type of arm foraward then into the reach back or arm to the reach back then boom type of throws. On the final hole of the Beast that is the European Open course Simon reach backed well to the right starting out his throw by semi rounding until the right pec or so continuing straightish across his chest grip locking to the right. He was hammering hard there beyond regular control power because you need shit ton of power to get to the green or the uphill fairway in front of the raised green. That hole is IIRC close to 700' well uphill. Simon did two that hole in practice. The course is long and the weather was hot enough so that the 5+ hour rounds hurt the stamina. That attempt is still no joke by any means and only the elite distance throwers can hope to gain a stroke on the other by going to the green. Simon was lagging behind in the scores so he needed to shoot some fireworks.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Going from 450'-475' average, to 500'

Postby archimedesjs » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:49 pm

I've tried to slow things down a bit, and smooth it out. I got a few a smidge over 500'. I feel like I'm exerting less effort, with better results. I'm sure there is critiques to be made, and I'm glad to take them. At least the camera is level, and I'm not throwing from in a hole though. :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhfHGNZzE6A
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