Training Regimen

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Postby Blake_T » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:04 pm

i find that practicing with a set of different models does more for developing throwing nuances and disc knowledge than throwing a stack of the same disc.

imo, you should be able to throw nearly any disc straight within 3 throws by adjusting the results from the first two throws.

playing well on all types of courses depends a lot on dynamic variation: being able to consistently make correct adjustments given the conditions, course, and disc you are throwing.
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Postby presidio hills » Wed Apr 05, 2006 2:32 pm

jiwaburst wrote:Best distance driving practice for me though is when I grab about 6-8 drivers that are straight. Then focus way far on the horizon as my target, then relax and don't try to throw it there, but do have it in my head as the target. Slowly I am learning to translate this to the course.


i do the same thing... picking a target that's out of my range and then try to throw it smooth and straight without expecting it to get there. this helps me a lot in terms of trusting that if i throw a clean shot i will get it farther and straighter than if i try to throw and reach something out there that may be out of my range.
if i'm practicing in a field with putters, midranges, and drivers... i'll just throw straight and smooth with all of them, and usually only my drivers make it, but the putters and midranges were still good throws. much better than if i was trying to get my putters and mids to target.
it's a good excercise in discipline.
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Postby Warlord » Wed Apr 05, 2006 4:01 pm

Thanks for the suggestions....a lot of good info here.

A couple of you suggested weight training, and that reminded me of something I learned as a Phys Ed Major in college.....plyometrics.

Plyometrics is a training method used in many sports where "explosive" power (strength + speed) is needed.....olympic weightlifting, basketball (jumping), and football (mainly linemen).

It seems to me that disc golf could be included in the list. From what I've read on this site and others is that power (brute strength) is not the key to what is required in our sport.

Here are a couple of links to sites with information, and examples of exercises, on the subject:



http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/plymo.htm
http://www.exercisedb.com/exercisedatabase/plyometrics.asp

To be a little more specific, I would think that the abdominal oblique and quads, because they are used in the run-up and twisting of the upper body in the throw, would benefit from this type of training.

Again....thanks for the responses.
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Postby LastBoyScout » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:31 pm

I do the same thing. I have 8 wraiths. 2 CFR - 175g, 2 Star - 175g, 2 Star - 171g, 1 Star - 168g, and 1 Star - 167g. All fly basically the same and I practice doing the same shots with all of them. This gives me the ability to have a no wind, slight wind, and heavy wind driver to throw and know exactly how it will behave. I also use my CFR Wraiths as rollers. Talk about more distance than I ever got with a sidewinder or a roadrunner.
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Postby didihitatree » Wed Apr 05, 2006 7:57 pm

roadkill wrote: This is further evidence that yours is a timing issue rather than a strength issue. When we try harder we tend to get out of psynch. The most common problems are a backswing that is too fast or the forward swing begins too fast.


Yes, it's definitely a timing issue with me, that was the point I wanted to make. The week I worked on my X-step and added about 20 feet to my drives. I am still improving and I realize I'm not on the level of many here.

Wasn't my intent to say that forearm strength is not important. Just people nowadays have a tendency think that hitting the weights is the answer to everything, when in fact technique is probably 75-90% of things like tennis, drumming or disc golf.

As for the backhand throw being like a backhand drive in tennis, I wish they were similar but they really aren't. On a backhand you swing your arm low to high in a vertical plane. As a result, you don't straighten out your elbow and you really don't even rotate your hips. You are pushing forward then up. The backhand drive in discgolf is almost 90 degrees to that-- you keep your arm on a fairly constant vertical plane (depending on shot) and swing horizontally. You won't ever tennis pros whirling around on a backhand like you see disc golfers do finishing their shots.

The one area where playing tennis and drums has really helped is in coordination. Most people don't have wrist, hands, and shoulders independence. I remember trying to learn how to throw nose down and anhyzer, with my friends. They basically spiked the disc into the ground (and still sometimes do), but it's not a problem for me. Same thing in reverse with throwing high. People lean back, their back shoulder dips, and their hand turns as they move their arm. People's bodies instinctively follow the nose of the disc and vice versa.

This is why putting and approaches are the best part of my game. I have good touch, and the ability to get a little extra zing if I need it without a big run up. My drives are weak because they require the me to work the less coordinated parts of my body (legs, hips).

A few of my drum students have those gyroballs and I think they're one of the better devices out there (though I do not recommend them for guitar) because they require coordination and not just strength.

I would say the same thing about the plyometric exercises I like. It's not that they build up muscles quicker but rather they force you to control your muscles. It's not how powerfully you can contract or elongate, but how smoothly and quickly you can go from contraction to relaxed to elongating. That's what generates explosiveness. To me, that's more coordination than raw power.
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Postby Blake_T » Wed Apr 05, 2006 8:34 pm

plyometrics = source of snap. it is the rapid contraction of a pre-stretched muscle (aided by the reflex of tendon elasticity).
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Postby Warlord » Wed Apr 05, 2006 9:21 pm

plyometrics = source of snap. it is the rapid contraction of a pre-stretched muscle (aided by the reflex of tendon elasticity).


I conducted a short search for plyometric exercises and found a few that would be sport-specific to disc golf. Although all are not technically plyometric exercises, I think that these would be beneficial to anybody who uses the x-step:

For the abdominals:

http://www.myfit.ca/exercisedatabase/view.asp?table=plyometrics&ID=3&name=Seated

http://www.myfit.ca/exercisedatabase/view.asp?table=plyometrics&ID=2&name=Ball

http://www.myfit.ca/exercisedatabase/view.asp?table=plyometrics&ID=1&name=High



Legs:

http://www.myfit.ca/exercisedatabase/view.asp?table=plyometrics&ID=6&name=Double

Look at the Depth Jump on this link....I will guarantee it will give you more power in your run-up. Also, look at the Side Throw....looks like it is pretty specific also:


http://www.sport-fitness-advisor.com/plyometricexercises.html

The bottom line is that plyometrics work for pure explosive bursts of power. I'm not sure that the lats can be worked this way...or the deltoids....in a disc golf specific manner, but I do have an exercise physiologist in the family...one of the best in the nation....I'll ask him.
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Postby LastBoyScout » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:05 pm

Sweetness. More exercises to add to my list. Im also taking up yoga (in my home. No downward dog for me in public).

I agree that timing is crucial, but i also do believe that strenght used properly with timing is fundamental as well. Just as hitting a baseball is all about timing, you cant hit that hard homerun without adding strenght to the equation.

I know that the majority of my distance that I have is from strength. I have only been playing for 10 months and granted my technique and form is constantly evolving. Just because more advanced players took the time at the Bowling Green Ams to talk and work with me, im finally driving over 400 feet consistantly. Feels good to be able to jump putt at hole that I normally had to throw an approach shot at.

Also.... Disc Golf Stretching Video..... http://www.midre.com/dgtv/videos/Dr._Carl/drcarl_030906a.wmv Dont Forget to do Save As in Windows Media Player!
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Postby didihitatree » Wed Apr 05, 2006 10:23 pm

Yes, but to me the key is understanding that plyometrics don't really build muscle per se. You've only got but so many fast twitch muscle fibers and these fibers are activated by nerves. What you're doing with plyometrics is training the nervous system so you can tap into more of those fast twitch fibers. Faster reaction reflexes=speed=explosiveness.

Lifting weights builds strength, plyometrics trains strength. One does not replace the other, and don't try to use them improperly. You want to do plyometrics smoothly and well, as opposed to doing them hard/longer/more reptitions. And the minute you feel muscular fatigue and realize your technique has slipped, stop immediately.

If you can do a set of 30 pushups, then try doing a set of 10 clapping pushups. If you can't do pushups, don't start with clapping pushups and up your sets seeking to build muscle endurance because you will hurt yourself. Very quickly and probably very badly.

If you do plyometrics one day, balance it out the next day with something low-impact like Tai-chi that gets you some limb muscle endurance training but also core strength/balance and agility. And just lift weights regularly (and sanely) a couple of times a week. Honestly, the he-man dudes you see at the straining gym for 2 hours a day would be a lot healthier, athletic and stronger in half the training time if they mixed up their techniques. They just wouldn't look as buff when they point out where the beach is.

Anyway, I think anything that works the abdominals and obliques is good, because it builds up your core. It will not only help your disc toss motion be more explosive, but it helps your balance. It's good for pretty much anything you want to do, including living longer and not having back pains.
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Postby LastBoyScout » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:10 pm

Yes i understand plyometrics, ive didn't earn my fitness merit badge in boyscouts just because i showed up. Its not about give and take, its about applied concepts. Just like when i ran hurdles I used the plyometric blocks to jump onto and also jump over in a side to side fashion. While i enjoy having muscular definition, its not a strictly disc golf workout. I also do alot of back packing, swimming, skiing, knee boarding and other physically taxing activites such as having to lift trays of food at work that average out at about 50 lbs because of the heavy dinnerware.

I do appreciate that someone helped to re-direct me torwards plyometrics. Its been a few years since Ive used them and yes you are correct that they will indeed help with adding speed to your snap by helping to stimulate your fast twitch muscle fibers. Just as working out taxes your slow twitch muscle fibers. think fast twitch is what a sprinter uses to quickly use maximum force to run, but these fibers expend ATP quicker and take longer to replenish. Slow twitch would be more towards a marathon runner as they expend ATP at a slower rate (since they fire slower) and have the added benifit of have the mitochondria and myoglobin contained within them to help replenish the ATP and stave off lactic acid build up. Wow. Flash back to Advanced Anatomy and Physiology.

Its great to help build fast twitch muscle endurance, strenght, and coordination, but you also have to train your slow twitch muscle as well.

`nuff said.
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Postby LastBoyScout » Wed Apr 05, 2006 11:16 pm

A little something from my A & P book:

Studies are showing that with consistent endurance training, muscle fibers can develop more mitochondria and surrounding capillaries. In this way training improves your muscle's ability to cope with and adapt to the stress of exercise. While there is limited evidence to show that human skeletal muscle switches fiber types from "fast" to "slow" due to training, researchers have demonstrated a fast-to-slow fiber transformation in animal skeletal muscle, and the human studies are showing similar outcomes. There is decent evidence that pure fast (Type IIb) fibers can transition to "hybrid" (Type IIa) fibers with chronic endurance training.

Meaning that there is hope for that couch potatoes after all......
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:06 pm

It's new to me, so I want to thank everyone for the info. Also, the video is great. I know to stretch...I make my athletes stretch, but I want to make sure I'm doing so correctly. If y'all have any more resources for stretching, be sure to link them or share them.

I guess I need a giant white ball now...
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Postby LastBoyScout » Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:39 pm

swiss ball....learn the lingo lol. Cost about 4 dollars at any walmart. But like he said: a bench, ottoman, chair, anything can be used. I use the park bench by hole one at my home course.
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Postby roadkill » Thu Apr 06, 2006 7:00 pm

TexasOutlaw wrote:. If y'all have any more resources for stretching, be sure to link them or share them.


Here's a link to the Stretching and Sports Injury Newsletter I get. You may find this helpful. In addition to signing up for future issues you can access the archives of past newsletters for stretching ideas.

http://www.thestretchinghandbook.com/archives/
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