Question about a shot

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Question about a shot

Postby Aaron_D » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:02 pm

My home course has several holes that are basically L-shaped with an almost 90 degree bend less than 150' from the tee, but you are basically throwing down a canopy covered path with a low ceiling (~15').

My question is this: Is it better to throw a driver with a lot of low speed fade and hope the shot apexes at the bend and continues down the second half of the "L"...or is it best to throw a putter (i use med wizards so 150' is nothing) and try to land right at the bend and shoot for par?

What discs would you recommend for this type of shot...eg. a short but extremely curvy shot with a low ceiling.
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Postby garublador » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:11 pm

Depending on...well a lot of things, you could try a skip shot. Take something overstable and throw it so it hits the ground at a hyzer angle at the apex of the 'L'.

You can also just throw a longer, overstable disc with less power on a more sweeping hyzer path if you have the room. It may take some practice to get the distance right, but once you figure that out you'll end up with a very useful, reliable shot.
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Postby Thatdirtykid » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:33 pm

depends on how far the basket is from the fairway.
I thought skip shot first, and if its a bend right land a roller verticle (assuming you can roll here) so it turns hard.
If you cant go to high it would be hard to get the disc to come too far left in just a fade, mabey a low hyzer that flies toward the wall on the right (for a left dogleg) and barely cuts the corner, which would probably skip would be a perfect shot, but High risc playing it close to the corner and the right wall.
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Postby adidadg » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:37 pm

There is a hole on my home course that is very similar. It is a low ceiling tunnel shot to begin with for about 150', then it takes a 90degree right turn, and its about another 100' uphill to the basket. It follows a chain link fence so cutting across the dogleg is not an option. It causes fits for players who do not have a forehand shot. For me, I like to use my pro monster with a forehand, it works especially well if the hole has a really low ceiling as this disc will always take a huge skip to the right. It is pretty easy to throw a forehand straight so this is a high percentage shot for me, I have never seen anyone birdie it using anything other than a forehand.

If you dont have a good forehand, it is probably best to lay up with a putter and take the easy par like you said. Its always good to learn a forehand though.

another option, although it would be risky is a short range backhand roller, or a forehand Cut roller.
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 10, 2006 1:53 pm

there's a multitude of options for this shot, but none of which are all that "traditional."

if playing safe, laying up at the L is probably the way to go. for some reason, i'm just as likely to hit a tree on the way if i'm trying to lay up as if i'm trying to pound a hard hyzer shot down the L.

options:

1) very hard thrown skip shot with something super-overstable. try to land it 20-30' short of the L and play for 6-10 skips down the L (as it skips it goes progressively more left and less forward).

2) very hard flat shot thrown low, slightly nose up, and with something super overstable. penetrate and bite with a big fade/skip.

3) moderate power flat shot thrown low with a slight wrist roll under and an understable driver.

4) sidearm roller with a stable disc thrown hard and at about 80 degrees of anhyzer, landing around 80-100' off the tee

5) hard low trajectory tomahawk with something stable or overstable but tilted in towards your head.


basically, if you aren't proficient at these shots, practice them :)
even if you choose to never use them on that hole, having skilled options always helps in the long run. i consider these to be fairly high percentage shots. unless you are a bad-azz cut roller or cut scooby roller, thumb roller, etc. a lot of those are pretty hard...

my #1 choice on this would probably option 2 listed above if it's a shorter hole and option 1 if i need say, 200' of skips down the L.
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Postby roadkill » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:10 pm

My strategy and shot selection would depend upon a lot of different factors. Some of the factors would be:

-distance from the bend to the basket.
- width of fairway to the basket
-degree of danger/penalty for going a little off the fairway

Dogleg Left:
If the basket was less than 75 feet from a dogleg , I'd use a skip shot with an Orc or a Z buzz. If it were between 85 and 135 feet and there wasn't too much penalty for getting a little off the fairway, I'd try a forehand roller. If there was OB, thick woods or other danger for getting off the fairway and the basket was more than 85 feet from the bend I'd do a lay up with the wizard and take the three. Now if the basket were 300-330 from the dogleg and the additional 40-50 feet I'd gain off the skip would be the difference between a 3 and a 4 then I'd use the skip.

Dogleg Right:

Similar decision process, except in order to use the skip you would need to throw a sidearm hyzer (a weakness of mine) skip. I would substitute a backhand roller into the equation instead of a forehand roller. Other than that the decision process for me would be identical considering the variables as dogleg left.


Shot selection is all about risk vs. reward and then setting an objective (or purpose) for each shot to achieve your final score on that hole. For instance, if you have 150 and then a 90 degree dogleg then another 150 to the hole, it's going to be a three short of something stupid (4,5) or miraculous(2). You should be able to make a 150' upshot unless it's extremely tight or extremely windy. Yet if you take more risk with a skip (40') or a roller (80-100') it is still unlikely to result in a two. In that situation the objective should be a three because the potential risk is greater than the chance of a reward.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:15 pm

If I'm understanding you (that the shot needs to cut hard left), it seems to be there are discs that do this. The demon comes to mind.

Actually, this sounds like the perfect demon hole (what are the other manufacturer alternatives fellas?) because it doesn't go to far before it cuts hard left.

We have a hole that is about 175, no challenge at all so we play a mandatory around a tree. I just throw my demon low (I mean low like 7 feet or lower off the ground) just to the right of the tree and it hyzers back and lands by the basket.

Note: if you don't keep it too low, you over throw it, or I do anyway. I guess this would be Blake's option 2. If I'm misunderstanding and it's a right turn, throw a roller so that it lands about 40 feet short of the turn.
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Postby adidadg » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:27 pm

This is kind of off topic but what does make overstable discs skip so well? Like I said the monster skips a ton for me but i originally thought it was because of the large wing. But I then got a Drone, and it is a very blunt un-aerodynamic disc, but it skips just as well. Just curious...
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Postby Aaron_D » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:31 pm

Thank you for the tips.

The specific hole im talking about bends to the right and as a RHBH thrower I usually just take the 3. Ive seen this hole birdied a few times by one of the top guys who plays on my home course, but he throws sidearm 100% of the time and is wicked accurate. lemme describe the hole a little more accurately.

the "tunnel" i speak of is probably 10"wide from the 'entrance' all the way to the bend and is heavily wooded with insane hills in the woods....im talking severe penalty for not making it through the tunnel. once around the bend there is not ceiling and the basket is probably less than 60' away. No OB. (thank god)

As far as skip shots go, the tunnel is slightly uphill and the roots of all the trees which make up the tunnel create a sort of step-like ground so a disc that hits the ground will get caught and stop dead.

The techniques you guys have provided will help greatly with other holes aswell. Thank you very much.
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Postby garublador » Mon Apr 10, 2006 2:51 pm

adidadg wrote:This is kind of off topic but what does make overstable discs skip so well? Like I said the monster skips a ton for me but i originally thought it was because of the large wing. But I then got a Drone, and it is a very blunt un-aerodynamic disc, but it skips just as well. Just curious...


A disc skips because of the angle at which it hits the ground. Overstable discs tend to hit the ground at the correct angle with lots of speed. They also tend to skip sideways quite a bit because of the direction the disc is traveling when it hits the ground and because the nose angle and speed of the disc change a lot after a skip (they get much slower and the nose goes up).

Try taking an old putter or a catch disc and throw it so it hits the ground (preferably cement or asphalt) with a hyzer. It's a good way to learn how to get a good skip.
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Postby adidadg » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:30 pm

that makes sense now that you mention it, thanks
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:47 pm

TO, have you thrown a slew of demons?

i have thrown about 15 diff ones (i wrote gateway's product brochures in 01 and 02) and every demon i have ever thrown was very different. i have thrown a few newer ones and they varied a lot as well, especially after the D FX, Da's, etc. came out.

a few i had couldn't be thrown over 150' unless you put like 80 degrees of anhyzer on them. a few others would hold somewhat straight when cranked flat and very hard before crashing and burning.

personally i found the old scout (less overstable H demon) to be a fairly decent disc more in a gator type stability, but found the demon nearly useless.

unless they are significantly less overstable now, getting a demon to hold a straight line 100' down a tunnel would still be a chore, especially considering you'd have to throw it quite hard which in theory reduces accuracy down the said tunnel.
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Postby discmonkey42 » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:12 am

Blake, I've been puzzled at your dislike of the Demon. Now I understand. I only have one S Demon at 175g. This disc does one thing. Goes straight and low 120'-150' feet pretty low (8-10') and turns leeeeeeeeft when it loses speed. Just need to throw it with a little anhyzer and good snap and it does this every time no matter the wind speed or direction. Doesn't sound like the ones you got did anything like this, but mine is very reliable for me and an invaluable part of my bag.
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Postby Blake_T » Tue Apr 11, 2006 12:42 am

i had 2 that did that. they were both experiments. one was a "puffy rim" version, and the other was in an experimental plastic. the experimental plastic one warped BAD on first tree hit and lost all glide ability. the puffy rim one did it better... but was an experiment with water cooling and not standard done.

the scout was closer to that line, but add 50-60', making it just another overstable roc :P

i like gateway's stuff, but it's so inconsistent... phantom retools, cooling methods, etc... gets bothersome.
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Postby TexasOutlaw » Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:53 am

Actually, Blake I was going to ask you about that. I just have the one demon I've been throwing which is broken in very well; I've already had to sand it down to get rid of knicks.

Does gateway suffer from different runs or production variance like other companies?

Also, I'm not sure exactly what demon to get. I think I have the s; it feels like dx plastic, but I know there is also a speed demon. This disc I have (red with a devil face on it, in case it makes a difference) started turning left at about 100 feet or so until it hit a tree. After many encounters with the Great Texas Mesquite, it has straightened out some but is still overstable. I wanted to start beating up another one actually.

This one definately goes further than 200 feet at the moment. I throw it on 200 foot holes to avoid passing the basket. I've got a z wasp coming that may replace it though.
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