What's really so bad about OAT's?

[Blake_T]

yah, garu and eric summed it up.

there are certain shots that REQUIRE off-axis torque, but these are not PURE throws.

discs are getting so fast that the rec and average player can't throw them straight with a pure throw. off-axis torque is their compensation for poor disc selection.

there's reasons you don't want to off axis on every throw.

pitching in baseball is an example. if a fastball is pure throw, and a curveball is an off-axis torque throw, repeatedly throwing one of these will leave your elbow in intact... the other will not.

i will say that the most common cause of off-axis torque in the new breed of players is breaking the shoulder plane.

[MR. WICK]

i will say that the most common cause of off-axis torque in the new breed of players is breaking the shoulder plane

What do you mean by this?

[Timko]

i will say that the most common cause of off-axis torque in the new breed of players is breaking the shoulder plane

What do you mean by this?

Look at the plane your shoulders create (even for straight shots, right higher than left for hyzers, left higher than right for anhyzers). The vector that this plane makes should be parallel to the vector your arm makes when it's coming across your body and being released.

[MR. WICK]

ok now I get it. My friend has a huge problem with this. He compensates by throwing 175 firebirds all the time.

[black udder]

To get back to the "T" image. Imagine somebody ties a 2x4 across the top of your shoulders from elbow to elbow. You can move your elbows to throw, but there is no way you can move one arm down without moving the other up. That's staying on plane.

[Blake_T]

good example BU.

[BlarneyStoner]

As for OAT and the stability of discs. It's typical for new throwers to roll their wrist over or get off plane because they're unfamiliar with proper form. They typically start with 1-2 discs and they get beat up pretty quickly. Thus, they believe that those discs are now too understable for them. They then go and look for a disc that's more stable, thinking that the previous one is too understable for their power. They could just go buy a new version of the same disc. Now, they find with the new, more stable disc, that the discs don't go as far, so they throw harder, causing more lack of control and more OAT and wrist roll.

Wow... that is exactly what I've just realized I've been doing. I started turning over Surge's (RHFH) as I started to try to generate more power. I have thrown them in the 275-300ft range for some time and have been trying to break that plateau. I thought it was the disc, so I went out and bought a couple new ones that would give me some more stability. Same effect. It looks like I'm throwing with quite a bit of OAT, and that's causing the disc to fly a lot more HS understable. Does that sound right?

[black udder]

As for OAT and the stability of discs. It's typical for new throwers to roll their wrist over or get off plane because they're unfamiliar with proper form. They typically start with 1-2 discs and they get beat up pretty quickly. Thus, they believe that those discs are now too understable for them. They then go and look for a disc that's more stable, thinking that the previous one is too understable for their power. They could just go buy a new version of the same disc. Now, they find with the new, more stable disc, that the discs don't go as far, so they throw harder, causing more lack of control and more OAT and wrist roll.

Wow... that is exactly what I've just realized I've been doing. I started turning over Surge's (RHFH) as I started to try to generate more power. I have thrown them in the 275-300ft range for some time and have been trying to break that plateau. I thought it was the disc, so I went out and bought a couple new ones that would give me some more stability. Same effect. It looks like I'm throwing with quite a bit of OAT, and that's causing the disc to fly a lot more HS understable. Does that sound right?

Maybe, maybe not. If you're throwing RHFH (sidearm), then you will get a lot more snap on the disc than a typical backhand. It's not uncommon for newer players to sidearm a disc 300', but backhanding a disc 300' is a bit tougher.

With sidearm, you get a LOT of snap on the disc which will turn over discs that are not too overstable. A Surge could be one of these discs that isn't good for sidearm (I can't sidearm so can't say much). I know the sidearm players I know throw things like Monsters. You can check out the equipment threads for good sidearm discs, or quote your average distance and ask some of the guys what they recommend.

What I was talking about would mean that you threw the Surge at the start and it did just what you wanted, and as it got older, you started to flip it, so you bought a more overstable disc and then it was too overstable.

[BlarneyStoner]

What I was talking about would mean that you threw the Surge at the start and it did just what you wanted, and as it got older, you started to flip it, so you bought a more overstable disc and then it was too overstable.

That's what happened. I used to throw nice 300ft shallow S's with it. 325 on a really good throw, released with a little anny. Now, more often than not I'm geting a 175-200ft 1/2-S, intead of the S. I think I'm giving the same amount of height I used to, in order for it to have the time to flex out. I just don't feel like I'm getting that strong whipping motion that I used to on the sidearm, but I don't know what I've changed.

[BlarneyStoner]

so you bought a more overstable disc and then it was too overstable.

Oh... sorry, just caught this part. I did wind up buying newer Surges to compensate for what I thought was a beat understable disc. The result was not too much overstability, but the same lack of HS stability- imparted, I'm starting to believe, by my inability to direct all of my power around the axis of my throw.

[Blake_T]

With sidearm, you get a LOT of snap on the disc which will turn over discs that are not too overstable.

it's actually velocity that turns discs over... snap does not.

people who have cannons for arms have a lot of velocity, hence the need for stability.

most players who bomb have very little off axis torque.

[freeus]

This is a very illuminating discussion. I always thought that off-axis torque meant the disc fluttering like an unbalanced tire while it flies (which mine also do sometimes) . But based on what's been said here, I have a huge OAT problem. Thanks for the info, I have something to work on.

[cmlasley]

This is a very illuminating discussion. I always thought that off-axis torque meant the disc fluttering like an unbalanced tire while it flies (which mine also do sometimes) . But based on what's been said here, I have a huge OAT problem. Thanks for the info, I have something to work on.

The flutter can be a symptom of OAT.

[Olorin]

I'm also trying to understand OAT better. I'm not really clear about what axis you're talking about. To me, the initial explanation was unclear. A picture would really help here, but I don't know how to post a good one. Here are 2 attempts:
-Look on the first page of this article http://www.discwing.com/pdf/ARCpaper.pdf for the X-Y-Z axes on a disc
-On this page, http://sites.google.com/site/discphysics/Home/axes, there's an attachment that has the same picture of just the disc with the X-Y-Z axes.

OK, so lets try with just words. Assume that the disc is flat and the forward velocity vector is pointing on the X axis. Then the Z axis runs vertically through the center of the disc. The Y axis is on the same plane as the disc and perpendicular to the X axis.

OR: looking down on the disc, the front is at 12:00 so the X axis runs between 12:00 and 6:00 and the Y axis between 3:00 and 9:00.

If someone could figure out how to post those pictures here it would be much easier to visualize.

Back to OAT-- I'm guessing that OAT is along the Z axis. Is that right?

[JR]

Tired after work so let's see if my brain has shut out. If the disc is flying along X axis it would rotate on Y axis thanks to the spin. Rotation anywhere else than on the Y axis would be off axis torque. That's why there's the off there. The disc would still rotate around the center but it would also have other forces going to different directions acting on the disc=flutter.