1 O'Clock Grip?

Information, Questions, Discussion about Throwing Mechanics and Technique

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Postby sleepy » Wed May 03, 2006 7:02 am

Thanks for the pics...great presentation! I'll definitely give that a whirl on the soccer field tonight. :)


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Postby Blake_T » Wed May 03, 2006 7:22 am

the grip the pictures are of is what i was describing earlier.

phil arthur is someone that can throw 450'+ and my video breakdown has a great example of someone with big power throwing with your original grip:
http://www.discgolfreview.com/resources ... thur.shtml

phil also has a very good weight shift and is very weight forward during the throw.

as for the pictures, that grip is not something i recommend for driving as it can cause hyper-extension of the wrist if the wrist doesn't supinate (since it does not allow the wrist to open on its normal hinge), and causes off-axis torque if the wrist does supinate.

i have seen a good number of players that use that grip for upshots and putter/mid drives.

while that grip may yield greater power for some players, it is usually only players that do not extend their wrist (these players are prone to the disc sliding out rather than ripping).
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 03, 2006 10:16 am

I think there are differing grips and hand/wrist positions that could work.

The original grip shown is what I would call a "weak" grip (in the ball golf grip equivalency).

In ball golf a "weak" grip would be the equivalent of both hands out in front of you and clapping them together, with both thumbs absolutely vertical (in this case you will see the hands appearing to be on "either side of the grip" and not on top).

The disc three o'clock grip is one with the palm absolutely perpindicular to the ground, and the hand completely leading the disc at all times (in other words the disc is to the side of the disc).

However, in ball golf the "weak" grip is simply not recommended for all but the strongest players, and requires a tremendous amount of pronation in the wrist hinge at the hit. This is straight out of Ben Hogan's "5 Lessons" instructional book. Hogn was the "original" weak grip player, and was tremendous advocate of the "wrist watch face leading" pronation in the hitting area. Truthfully, I am a huge believer in pronation per Hogan because of the consistency of the anatomical geometry, but frankly, after some 50 years of reflection on this technique, only about 30% of the best pros could be said to be "pronators". The other 70% would be "supenators" (or use a strong, rotated grip and "hit" to an "open wrist").

This pronation is really quite the same for the grip and hit relationship in disc golf. The palm must remain vertical through the entire snap (since the palm is perpendicular to the plate). I submit that is not a natural position, AT LEAST no more or less than the palm being absolutely horizontal through the snap (or parallel to the plate).

If you look at the pics you will see I am not advocating being 100% on top of the disc (or absolutely palm down), more like 50/50 (45 degrees), and more on the other side of the disc. I believe this is more grip effective, provides an easier pull, a bigger and more consistent rip, creates more spin, and won't ultimately lead to overstressing the tendons on the top of the forearm and top of the shoulder. The rotated forearm actually more effectively transfers the work to the back muscles instead of the oblique muscles on the side of the trunk.

Try this excercise: Hold your arm out in front of you with you palm vertical. Have someone push on the back of your hand. Resist moving you arm. Feel the muscles being used. You will feel the muscles down your side and top of the shoulder dominating. Now try the same excercise with palm facing the ground. Resist being pushed in the same direction as you did before. Now you will feel the muscles in your triceps and upper back being used. The ergonomic truth is that the muscles in your back are much stronger. Now try it once more with the palm in the "natural" 45 degree to the ground position. This position will use both sets of muscles and will have the feel of the least stress.

If you were going to "elbow someone in the face" standing behind you, your palm would be as much looking at the ground as vertical. In fact, a vertical palm feels very uncomfortable in this position to me. This position, however, is the lead to the "hit" in the disc throw, so why not use the most ergonomic position?

Long story short, I think there is more than one grip that is effective, just like ball golf.

BTW I am not sure tendons "bounce" at all. Muscles bounce (or rebound), which are connected to tendons, which are connected to bone. Tendons are something that you DO NOT WANT TO OVERSTRESS. TRUST ME!!! Look at the pictures carefully in the other thread and you can see the surgery scars in the crook of my throwing arm.

Athletic endeavors should strive to use as many large muscle groups as possible. Not isolate small ones...
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 03, 2006 11:29 am

I did a search on "tendon bounce" and the only place I can find the term used in here. Maybe it is just an expression.

I did find this though from an old Blake thread:
Blake Said:
"brinster's technique is mainly known for golf D vs. pure D. after he won the 2002 USDGC distance contest making 10/10 (if i remember correctly) across the pond, the pdga.com board pretty much held consensus that he was one of the biggest golf D arms (if not the biggest overall) that was playing out and able to throw 500'+ whenever he wanted to (although 800' is probably out of his range). "

Here is a picture of Brinster's grip after release:

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The palm is defininitely facing downward. the thumb is pointing toward the target.

Here is his grip:

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and finish.

http://www.disclife.com/ph_mem02_17.shtml

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both views show a palm down orientation. Compare to my release.

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I think that part is fine. What I need to work on is more looseness, leg drive, and hip/body snap
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Postby Blake_T » Wed May 03, 2006 2:56 pm

what i am working from is advice given from ex-distance record holders and other players that throw 500'+. the only 500'+ thrower i know that uses a grip that rotates their palm to facing somewhat downwards while throwing drivers is tyler horne.

using a version of the grip you have pictured is what caused me to blow out my wrist at the end of '04 as it does not allow for a linear wrist extension (my wrist tried to unhinge and couldn't... it still hasn't healed, will require surgery whenever i get a better job).

the problem with the pictures of brinster you are going from to reference the hand position, is at that point in extension, the wrist will naturally roll under in order to allow for continuation of the upper body. nearly every player that has their right shoulder lower than their left at the peak of their reach will have a similar hand position at that point in the throw (especially emphasized by the movement of the shoulder upwards which is necessary for plane preservation).

the real frames to look at are at or before the rip point.

ImageImageImage
ImageImageImage
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all of these pictures show the 3 o'clock grip.

i agree that most players have weak grips, and far too many let the disc slip out. 380' can still be accomplished with this though, and it's more of a factor of mistiming for them, not getting enough whip motion from the hips/back, etc.
however, if that grip mod was the miracle that would push lesser players well over 400', it likely would have been discovered long ago. lately i have been working with a slew of ams that had a grip similar to the one pictured and switching them to a one o'clock grip helped them add 75'+ of d with their midranges/putters.

as for tendon bounce, that is a term coined by Dave Dunipace and is more inreference to the phenomenon of plyometric extension (rapid contraction of a pre-stretched muscle aided by tendon elasticity).

the throw itself is still triggered by large muscle groups, but the maximum transfer of force (generated by acceleration) still occurs by smaller muscles. it is the linear opening of the elbow and wrist on their natural hinge points that generates the maximum force (powered by the motion of the torso and legs).

a few years back i used to grip in a 1 o'clock method and sent pictures of it to Dave D. and he wrote back that it was a nose up grip. what i discovered is that it did in fact require a "late release" to get the disc nose down.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 03, 2006 5:16 pm

I think that 2 o'clock may be the ultimate compromise!!!!

I tried the "inline" grip more rotated on top of the dome (maybe 30 degrees). I think I like this best.

I think the point of the excercise is that getting a grip and acheiving the ergonomics necessary to achieve a nose down condition are extremely important.

I do believe my wife has begum to acheive actual "rips" with the "over the top grip". This was impossible with the "to the side" grip.

...and I certainly did not feel I would set the disc throwing world on its ear.
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Postby didihitatree » Wed May 03, 2006 8:11 pm

The snap comes from flicking your wrist, so do this. Hold your palm vertical and flick your hand out (snapping a towel, the "pimp" slap, etc.). Now do it with your palm facing down. The movement will be a lot more restricted. And I bet if you repeat it a few times you will find yourself rotating your wrist instead of snapping it out sideways.

Or do try this: put your hand out, palm down. Use your wrist to move your hand vertically (kinda like dribbling a basketball or waving "bye bye"). Now try moving your hand horizontally. A lot less freedom of motion.

A lot of beginning drummers grip the stick with their palm on the outside and make a wrist-karate chop motion to hit the drum head which I think results in the same motion you are talking about. It not only results in poor sound and weak endurance-- it will absolutely destroy your wrist.

I'm able to get a good part of my hand over the disc in the regular position. And I can grip it more than tightly enough. In fact I can just hang on to the disc the whole way through the throw. So the issue isn't raw grip strength but rather timing of release. And that can be done two ways: either let go at precisely the right instant, or grip it just tight enough that the disc rips out of your hand at just the right moment due to the force generated by your throw.

I'm guessing the first way is nearly impossible, although I bet there are players who cheat a little and at least loosen their grip or consciously drop a finger off their disc at some point prior to release. The second is a matter of balancing grip vs. release force.. the pros probably have to grip the disc a little tighter than I do.

I'm not saying you're wrong, or that the technique might not work for you, but I I'd be real, real careful... and I'd tend to trust the pros. Not because they throw far, but because they have thrown and continue to throw much more often than we do and they don't hurt themselves.
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Postby Blake_T » Wed May 03, 2006 10:35 pm

d.i.h.a.t. basically summed it up.

one thing i can also comment on, is that a 1 o'clock grip is easier to get nose down with if you DO NOT get weight forward. however, weight forward is part of the fundamentals of the throw...

hand size will also affect how easy it is to grip certain discs in certain ways. it's often harder to get a tight grip on very narrow or wide rimmed discs with a 3 o'clock grip, but there are ways of doing it.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Thu May 04, 2006 11:31 am

Blake_T wrote:
hand size will also affect how easy it is to grip certain discs in certain ways. it's often harder to get a tight grip on very narrow or wide rimmed discs with a 3 o'clock grip, but there are ways of doing it.


Man, you said a mouthfull there. I guess that is my single biggest struggle.

Gripping a Cyclone is easy. A Wraith, not so much.

What can be done?
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Postby Blake_T » Thu May 04, 2006 2:19 pm

adjusting the grip to make the pinch tighter/stronger is one thing. some slight placement mods can be done, but only slight.

you may want to experiment with middle finger rip grips with wider discs or with stack grips.
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