Masterbeato's form

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Masterbeato's form

Postby black udder » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:30 pm

Yo - MB - when you revamped your form under Blake, I'm guessing that as Blake has said, start at the throw and work backwards - but I'm curious how you got some of the mechanics down.

Such as:

1) It's hard to learn something new at max speed, so how did you get that pull developed? Can you do it slowly and yet still get accurate results? i.e. if I try a slow pull the disc grip locks or falls out (trying to adjust grip for throw).

2) How did you develop the x-step/follow through base (hips down). I've had a hard time ending up in that position at all, so wondering if it's all momentum or what.

3) You don't seem to turn your back to the basket, just a shoulder, but are getting great power and acceleration. Do you reach back farther/turn back further for longer throws?

Which things were easiest/hardest to grasp?
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Postby Blake_T » Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:14 pm

i can't say for sure which items worked, but i can say what i taught.

the first snap session was throwing stationary bent elbow throws with putters and a focus on accelerating through the rip.

in response to your questions.

1. you want to accelerate on every throw, regardless of range. adjustments are made to grip strength, reach length, shoulder turn, and footwork. same principles apply. it's funny because we had to do a separate session to work on throwing short (he was overthrowing shorter holes badly). MB is now deadly on throw ins. give him 10 throws in calm conditions from 125' and he'll probably make 3, hit metal on 6-7 (this includes makes), and be close on the other 3-4.

2. pace back your footwork from the end of the throw. hence, start at the throw and work backwards... this way every step cnotributes to your finish position. it's easy to have footwork that prevents good finish positioning.... if you work backwards the footwork you develop will have to work with good finish positioning because it was built upon establishing that finish position.

3. if you watch, his reach has a lot of pendulum motion. right shoulder drops down, body folds over, and the back of the right shoulder is the farthest turned point. i've written about this several hundred times :) you don't need to overturn. only turn enough to provide maximum acceleration and ideal body placement. if you build your throw from the end fo the throw backwards you learn to throw with a compact reach back it's easy to gradually add some more. eventually you hit a point of diminishing returns and realize that is too far.

BU: have you experimented with trying to build your throw from the hit backwards?
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Postby readysetstab » Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:57 pm

does he have a video somewhere that i'm not seeing?
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Postby WIpilot » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:06 pm

Keep It Simple Stupid........KISS
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Postby readysetstab » Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:53 pm

ah hah! yes, very nice.
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Postby masterbeato » Wed Mar 26, 2008 8:47 pm

Yes, i did work backwards with my X-Step. I wanted a very compact footwork because I was going for Power+Accuracy. With Accuracy being the greatest when it comes to the footwork I realized. It harnesses your body placement. But I do other things in opposed to getting accuracy.

1) All I did for about 2 weeks straight was standing in a stationary position and start my pull from my right pectoral, getting the feel for acceleration. Then, after the 2 weeks I slowly worked my X-Step by taking tiny steps. while still starting my pull from my right pectoral, and pulling through at full speed.

First, I would start with one step and pulling through, then I would work two steps. Then I worked a really slow X-Step. By this I mean stepping through the X-Step rather then running through. I worked my X-step and pull through this way. The whole Time I was doing this, I was always starting my reach back from my right pectoral and pulling through at max speed. Because your right pectoral is where the acceleration starts, while most people release at that point, which I was doing before this. After about a month I worked my X-Step all the way at the speed I wanted to incorporate into my game with 2 leading steps.

2) By kicking your back leg up clears your hip and gets weight forward, I'll just say it right there.

3)The reach back you seen in the videos, is the reach back I use all the time, I just recently incorporated that in my form like a week ago because I wanted to get more out of my throws, not just distance but a better follow through and it's also helped me lead with my elbows and not come to early with my body. I figured that out for myself.:)

The hardest thing to grasp was learning to clear my hip. I just did not understand it at all. I would kick my back foot up, but still not clearing my hip or I would clear my hip but I would lung forward and not pivot. So I made clear of this and worked extra hard for a long time before I finally got it. The easiest thing to understand was the Acceleration for me, I still asked a lot of questions, but those were the answers I already knew but just wanted to make sure I was right.

My favorite part of DG, are the throw ins. We play a rec round you can expect me to hit at least 1-2 125' throw ins. I practice those all the time.
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Postby black udder » Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:09 pm

Blake - This is my 2nd year of attempting to really work on my throw. I guess I've been here almost 3 years now. My hips are in good shape and I feel that I should be able to throw normally and achieve a fairly correct form.

I haven't worked backwards on my form yet - some things which you've been saying for awhile are starting to come back (or come up in threads) and I'm just deciding to try and modify my form from the ground up.

MB - I wish I was more accurate with the 125' shots... I'm not bad, but I have a bad habit of "fluffing" the nose up, so they just fade out as they near the basket. When I focus, I do better, but I'm still afraid of just blowing by, so it's a subconscious thing I have to work on.

Blake - the finish position I want is what MB has - more or less. I like the compact nature of it and it doesn't look like it requires uber flexibility in the shoulder (since I can't touch my left ass cheek with my right hand).

As for acceleration - I've worked on throwing right from my right pec before, but not on an extended basis. When practicing that, do you accelerate from a stand still to as fast as you can? Or is it an increasing acceleration? From a reach back I'd say slow to fast, but right up at the right pec, I was wondering if you still begin slower... well... as slower than as fast as you can.

Also, I'm assuming that you still pivot, dip the shoulder, etc. when throwing from the right pec? Still neutral wrist?

One thing that does appear the same with the follow through with both MB and Climo is they appear to stop the follow through instead of going as far as possible. I could be wrong, but with many players you see their arm go right across their back or bounce when it reaches the limit of flexibility. For MB/Climo, the sort of stop at a point and just leave the arm there for a second, which, to me, implies that it's within their flexibility, but not going beyond it.

I'd like more info on kicking the back leg up. In in experimenting with trying to achieve the same finish, I've had a few throws where I'm guessing I'm not getting my hip cleared, so advice there would be appreciated.

One of the things I have picked up from you, Blake, is the ability to throw a good throw just standing still. I can throw around 260' (with some discs) just standing still on the tee. I believe with effort I could get further, but have not had the need to throw further than that yet.
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Postby JR » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:37 pm

black udder wrote:I'd like more info on kicking the back leg up. In in experimenting with trying to achieve the same finish, I've had a few throws where I'm guessing I'm not getting my hip cleared, so advice there would be appreciated.
.


Positioning of the plant step in length and sideways position and the angle of bend in both knees make a world of difference. Trying every combination doesn't take too long to find your personal comfortable position. I can't suggest strongly enough that in trying to find the best positions of the plant step and the knee bending for hyzers, level throws and annies to make very slow x steps and stop at the position where the disc would hit. Then look at how you lean sideways and back/front. Then looking down should immediately show which body parts placed where contribute to which overall angles of your body. Like plant far right gives hyzer and plant too long and it's easy to lean back and throw way high. The position of the plant step also can stop the hip from twisting.
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Postby masterbeato » Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:54 pm

As for acceleration - I've worked on throwing right from my right pec before, but not on an extended basis. When practicing that, do you accelerate from a stand still to as fast as you can? Or is it an increasing acceleration? From a reach back I'd say slow to fast, but right up at the right pec, I was wondering if you still begin slower... well... as slower than as fast as you can.


I accelerate as fast as I can, because essentially, that's how fast you should be going from that point on, on your regular reach back.

Also, I'm assuming that you still pivot, dip the shoulder, etc. when throwing from the right pec? Still neutral wrist?


If your just starting this out and want to learn faster, don't worry about the pivot, shoulders, or wrist action, just focus on the feeling of the acceleration. But after a while yes, try pivoting and dipping your shoulder. my wrist is still neutral in this position. I do everything as I would in my regular throw as I would in this drill.
As you do this after a week or two, or just play a round after practicing this a couple times in the field, you will automatically start incorporating this into your throw. Which means all you have to do is practice your butt off in the fields, and take a couple days off, and go to the course and play a round and forget about what you were doing the previous days. That's what I did, and it worked for me. I was throwing farther without even knowing it, and then Blake kinda worked the crap outa me to get that extra shove that I needed.
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Postby black udder » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:30 am

masterbeato wrote:
As for acceleration - I've worked on throwing right from my right pec before, but not on an extended basis. When practicing that, do you accelerate from a stand still to as fast as you can? Or is it an increasing acceleration? From a reach back I'd say slow to fast, but right up at the right pec, I was wondering if you still begin slower... well... as slower than as fast as you can.


I accelerate as fast as I can, because essentially, that's how fast you should be going from that point on, on your regular reach back.

Also, I'm assuming that you still pivot, dip the shoulder, etc. when throwing from the right pec? Still neutral wrist?


If your just starting this out and want to learn faster, don't worry about the pivot, shoulders, or wrist action, just focus on the feeling of the acceleration. But after a while yes, try pivoting and dipping your shoulder. my wrist is still neutral in this position. I do everything as I would in my regular throw as I would in this drill.
As you do this after a week or two, or just play a round after practicing this a couple times in the field, you will automatically start incorporating this into your throw. Which means all you have to do is practice your butt off in the fields, and take a couple days off, and go to the course and play a round and forget about what you were doing the previous days. That's what I did, and it worked for me. I was throwing farther without even knowing it, and then Blake kinda worked the crap outa me to get that extra shove that I needed.


Okay - so for a couple weeks, head to the practice field. Stand still, hold disc at right pec and just pull as fast as I can. No twist, etc.

Question about the elbow. Assumption is I'll be standing with my side towards the "basket", when I pull, am I stopping my elbow so it's pointed at the "basket/direction I'm aiming" or do I pull it to the rear so I can keep the disc in a straight line heading from my chest towards the target? Keeping the elbow in position would be a straight chop from the elbow.
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Postby niuvalleycane » Thu Mar 27, 2008 12:51 am

masterbeato wrote:
By kicking your back leg up clears your hip and gets weight forward, I'll just say it right there.

The hardest thing to grasp was learning to clear my hip. I just did not understand it at all. I would kick my back foot up, but still not clearing my hip or I would clear my hip but I would lung forward and not pivot. So I made clear of this and worked extra hard for a long time before I finally got it.



The clearing of the hip eludes me, robbing me power, I'm not sure how to work on it
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Postby bcsst26 » Thu Mar 27, 2008 5:58 am

Thanks for a great topic. I am very interested in rebuilding everything from the hit back but am worried about practicing the wrong things or the wrong way. Any chance of posting a video of the different stages we should be practicing? :wink: I look forward to more advice about this topic and am ready to hit the practice field hard.
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Postby MrTasses » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:56 am

bcsst26 wrote:Thanks for a great topic. I am very interested in rebuilding everything from the hit back but am worried about practicing the wrong things or the wrong way. Any chance of posting a video of the different stages we should be practicing? :wink: I look forward to more advice about this topic and am ready to hit the practice field hard.


I'll second that. I have always struggled with the "Starting at the Right Pec" idea. I can never seem to figure out what that is supposed to look and feel like. I end up throwing with just my arm when I try that drill which strikes me as being the opposite of what that drill is supposed to teach.
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Postby jamsisjams » Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:59 am

MrTasses wrote:
bcsst26 wrote:Thanks for a great topic. I am very interested in rebuilding everything from the hit back but am worried about practicing the wrong things or the wrong way. Any chance of posting a video of the different stages we should be practicing? :wink: I look forward to more advice about this topic and am ready to hit the practice field hard.


I'll second that. I have always struggled with the "Starting at the Right Pec" idea. I can never seem to figure out what that is supposed to look and feel like. I end up throwing with just my arm when I try that drill which strikes me as being the opposite of what that drill is supposed to teach.
Yeah, I'm trying to visualize throwing from the right pec but it almost seems counterintuitive.
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Postby Blake_T » Thu Mar 27, 2008 9:03 am

I have always struggled with the "Starting at the Right Pec" idea. I can never seem to figure out what that is supposed to look and feel like. I end up throwing with just my arm when I try that drill which strikes me as being the opposite of what that drill is supposed to teach.


the early stages of this drill are to work with just upper body rotation.

rotate away, push off with your left foot and rotate forwards. if you are relaxed you should feel when you want to start tugging hard. you'll be surprised how faced up to the target you will be and how the disc actually leaves from in front of your body.
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