Hyzer flip question

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Postby Blake_T » Mon May 15, 2006 6:45 pm

true stable discs:
roc
wasp
wizard
big bead aviar
challenger
banger
teebird
starfire-x
predator
x-clone
firebird
x2

there's more, but not tons of them.
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Postby discmonkey42 » Mon May 15, 2006 10:31 pm

Does adding the "L" modification, ie teebird-L, firebird-L, etc. impact its true stability? Is this why the "L" versions seem to not be as good in the wind?
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Postby Blake_T » Mon May 15, 2006 10:37 pm

the L removes the true stability because it takes off the parts of the rim that make a disc truly stable.
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Postby kling » Tue May 16, 2006 1:17 am

Thanks Blake!

That's not many discs in the beginner friendly driver compartment. However, hyzer flipping Rocs will do until distance/consistancy to take on Teebirds is achieved . :)
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Postby Jestyr » Tue May 16, 2006 11:54 am

Blake_T wrote:true stable discs:
roc
wasp
wizard
big bead aviar
challenger
banger
teebird
starfire-x
predator
x-clone
firebird
x2

there's more, but not tons of them.


Reaper?
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Postby roadkill » Tue May 16, 2006 1:47 pm

Blake_T wrote:true stable discs:
roc
wasp
wizard
big bead aviar
challenger
banger
teebird
starfire-x
predator
x-clone
firebird
x2

there's more, but not tons of them.


Isn't stability a rather relative term?

The list here is probably truely stable for someone who can routinely throw 500+. But what percentage of golfers is that? Maybe one in two thousand? Far less than 1/10th of one percent. 20-30 people in the universe?

For me and I'd venture to say 99.9% of the people who visit this site a predator, starfire-x and firebird are more in the overstable dept rather than stable.

If you have to release a disc with annie to achieve max D it is not stable for you, but rather overstable.

For my power(370-400), a stable disc is

Teebird, Z wildcat, Buzz, new goblin, champ orc, x avenger, wizard,new to slightly seasoned roc.

overstable to me is

Predator, Firebird, Z xtra, X clone, Z wasp, champ shark even an X2 is bordering on overstable to me.
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Postby bigs348 » Tue May 16, 2006 2:10 pm

The list isn't of stable discs (as in straight flying). It's of discs that have some form of rim stabilizer and won't really flip over. Basically, no matter how hard you throw them (with good technique, of course, and no off-axis torgue) they will not turn over. I'm sure Blake could expound on this more, but that's my idea on "true stable" from what I've read of his writings. The real overstability of the disc (in the fade) has little to do with the disc being "true stable."
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Postby Blake_T » Tue May 16, 2006 8:01 pm

roadkill:

you are using low speed overstability in this where i am measuring high speed stability.

those are discs that are just as high speed stable for someone throwing 500' as someone throwing 250'.

none of those discs should fly overstable at high speeds for players with > 250' of power.

most discs nowadays have high speed stability that is VERY dictated by someone's power.
the SL, valkyrie, wildcat, crush, orc, etc. are all discs that will fly noticeably understable at high speeds for someone with 500' of power but will fly stable at high speeds for someone with 250' of power. for someone w/ 350-400' of power they will fly slightly to moderately understable.

the reason i call discs true stable is that they are: high speed stable for players of ANY power level. that is a short list and more objective than relative.

true stable discs are discs that will generally hit flat and "lock in" if they are hyzer flipped.
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Postby roadkill » Tue May 16, 2006 10:36 pm

It could be that my judgement is biased because my natural throw is with a bit of hyzer angle. Even when it feels like I'm releasing flat there's probably a little hyzer angle.

Basicly my technique has always been to hyzerflip everything to some degree or another. I played for about 12 years before any "true stable" discs were created. I can recall when an eclipse was deemed overstable (in a writeup in a disc newsletter profiling the newest discs) circa feb '89.
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Postby Goob The Noob » Wed May 17, 2006 8:31 am

Stability isn't just a function of velocity (power). Spin (snap) is equally important. Given equal velocity, a disc that is stable for someone with good snap will be understable for someone with little snap. The same goes for a disc that is stable for someone with little snap will be overstable for someone with good snap.
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Postby roadkill » Wed May 17, 2006 10:26 am

Goob The Noob wrote:Stability isn't just a function of velocity (power). Spin (snap) is equally important. Given equal velocity, a disc that is stable for someone with good snap will be understable for someone with little snap. The same goes for a disc that is stable for someone with little snap will be overstable for someone with good snap.


You're basicly right with the first half of your comment but mistaken on the second half. More spin maximizes stability but doesn't cause a disc to be more overstable.

Two players throw the same disc at the same speed in the same conditions. The one with more spin will have less overstable fade at the end of flight.

Stability rule 101 is that a disc fades when the spin of said disc drops below a certain speed. The more (over)stable the disc the greater the spin speed required to delay or minimize the fade.
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Postby Goob The Noob » Wed May 17, 2006 11:08 am

roadkill wrote:
Goob The Noob wrote:Stability isn't just a function of velocity (power). Spin (snap) is equally important. Given equal velocity, a disc that is stable for someone with good snap will be understable for someone with little snap. The same goes for a disc that is stable for someone with little snap will be overstable for someone with good snap.


You're basicly right with the first half of your comment but mistaken on the second half. More spin maximizes stability but doesn't cause a disc to be more overstable.

Two players throw the same disc at the same speed in the same conditions. The one with more spin will have less overstable fade at the end of flight.

Stability rule 101 is that a disc fades when the spin of said disc drops below a certain speed. The more (over)stable the disc the greater the spin speed required to delay or minimize the fade.


The disc with greater spin will be more stable than the disc with less spin at any speed. A disc that flies stable at high speed with low spin will be overstable at high speed with high spin. As you said, it maximizes stability, so any disc that is stable at high speed with low spin is an overstable disc and high spin will show just how overstable it is. The point is, saying any disc is "stable" for every person, whether they throw 300 or 500, is inaccurate because spin plays a big roll in disc flight characteristics.
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Postby bigs348 » Wed May 17, 2006 11:17 am

What you're saying is right, Goob, you just have to reverse your "overstable" and "understable."
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Postby bigs348 » Wed May 17, 2006 11:23 am

Well, I thought it was just an "under/over" reversal until I read the second post and now I don't think I know what you're trying to say at all...

Although its possible to throw a disc at high speeds without high spin, its not very likely. 95% of the time, high spin is required to reach high speeds. So I'm not really sure what you're trying to say. In any case, I'd have to say that this comment: "A disc that flies stable at high speed with low spin will be overstable at high speed with high spin." is incorrect.
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Postby Goob The Noob » Wed May 17, 2006 1:40 pm

Nope, didn't reverse over/under stable in either post. Not sure I can say it any more clearly but I'll try...

The stability of a disc during flight is a function of velocity and rotation. The higher the velocity, the higher the rotation is required for a stable flight. Too little rotation and the disc will be understable (turn right for RHBH throw). This is compensated for by disc design - an overstable disc requires less spin to fly stable at high speed than a stable disc requires at the same speed.

Basically, it boils down to:

more spin = more stable
less spin = less stable

where "stable" means the intrinsic characteristics of the disc design. Here's an example:

You throw your driver with a slight hyzer, as it reaches max velocity it levels out, then ends with the customary low speed fade - we'll call this the "stable" flight

You throw your driver with the same slight hyzer, with the same power but you managed to time your snap better so you have more spin. As it reaches max velocity, it won't make it back to level so it goes left before finishing with the customary low speed fade. - this would be "overstable" in relation to the first throw.

You throw your driver with the same slight hyzer, with the same power but you miss the snap timing and you have less spin. As it reaches max velocity, it levels out then turns over past level and goes right before finishing with the customary low speed fade. - this would be "understable" in relation to the first throw. (also a very pleasing hyzer flip :P )

Three different results with the same disc, same angle of release, same power, only differ in spin. The disc ratings are only guidelines that provide us a way to match disc charateristics to our own throwing style. A "stable" disc for you is not necessarily a "stable" disc for me.
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