Hyzer flip question

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Postby Blake_T » Wed May 17, 2006 1:53 pm

it's hard to really nail down any one of these factors as there are certain ones that are more important than others, especially depending upon the disc's shape.

spin is mostly responsible for the disc's lift characteristics rather than its stability. while spin does have some stability effects, it is usually the factor that changes the least during the throw, whereas velocity will slow much faster than the slow down in rotations.

with wide rimmed drivers, nose down is the #1 factor affecting stability, with #2 being velocity, #3 being spin.

it is possible to exceed the spin capacity for certain slower discs and over-rotate them into a turn, but very few players are capable of doing this.

it becomes very complicated heh. any change in 1 variable tends to assume constants in the other 2 major variables which is never really true so it's difficult to make any assumptions about it.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Wed May 17, 2006 4:28 pm

Blake_T wrote:it is possible to exceed the spin capacity for certain slower discs and over-rotate them into a turn, but very few players are capable of doing this.


Blake, i may have gotten this wrong, but i had always believed that the more spin a disc has, the later in its flight it flips and later it fades. i understand that velocity may have more to do with it, and of course the angle that you released it, im just a bit confused by you saying "over-rotate." i was led to believe (mainly from your articles, and from my experience previously driving strictly RHFH) that theres no such thing as too much snap/spin, and the more a disc spins the higher velocities it can handle. i hope im not going off in the wrong direction, but im just a bit confused.
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Postby garublador » Wed May 17, 2006 5:17 pm

It's true that when a disc spins faster it will have more angular momentum and it will be more difficult to get the disc to change its orientation (i.e. harder to get to flip up to flat, it will hold an anhyzer longer, it will fade later). However, I'd think that the forces the air imparts on the disc would be large enough to overcome this momentum, especally if the disc is moving fast through the air. I agree that it would make sense that the nose angle and velocity would make a larger difference because these are the two variables that affect how the disc travels through the air the most.

In my experience with throwing lids, putting a ton of spin on a disc will cause it to glide farther, but that was about it. Blake's theory that it will affect the lift supports this.

Now this all assumes there is sufficent spin to keep the disc stable. I don't see how you'd be able to throw a disc with a power grip and not get enough spin, though. It is interesting to see how a disc flies witout any spin, though. If you can throw it flat without any off axis torque, it will fly straight and drop like a rock.
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High Spin VS Low Spin

Postby roadkill » Wed May 17, 2006 5:20 pm

Noob,

It seems what you're claiming is that more spin means more stability. And this statement is basicly true. But it doesn't make a stable disc fly overstable. In other words a disc does not become more overstable as the result of more spin. Resistant to turnover yes, but won't make it flex quicker. You can't take a disc rated at 1.5 throw it with enormous spin and make it fly like a 2.5 rated disc.

Basicly more spin stabilizes the throw so that it holds its given angle longer. It's true whether you're talking, hyzer, anhyzer or straight. It's most obvious in a straight throw. Players who put little spin on their disc have more S shaped shots and have difficulty putting a disc on a ropeline for any significant (>300') distance. Whereas I've seen spin guys throw dead straight for 350 to 400 feet of their shot.

A disc will fade earlier and harder for a player with less spin.

I throw with average to slightly less than average (among pros) spin. I can throw a roc or goblin dead straight for 325 and have it land straight. I can throw a leopard dead straight in the same manner for about 350. However if I bump up to a Champ Teebird, Champ Orc or Pro Starfire I need to anticipate a 20-30 left fade at the end of the throw. Players with more spin are capable of throwing these high speed drivers straight til they land. This gives them an advantage on wooded courses even if we all throw the same distance.

Spin is a good thing because it makes a disc less vulnerable to wind, helps a disc maintain its angle/line and helps distance by helping the disc to stay aloft longer and maintain a forward penetration.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Wed May 17, 2006 7:25 pm

You both just confirmed exactly what i was thinking, i was just confused by blakes statement about "over-rotating discs."

I never said spin would make a disc more overstable... thats entirely different than stable in my mind. spin can make understable plastic more stable, but will never make it more overstable. i never confused the two.

id still like to hear blakes thinking on the over rotating comment, because its something i really just didnt think was possible...
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Postby roadkill » Wed May 17, 2006 7:47 pm

jgarcia,

My post was more directed towards goodnoob. (That's why I began the post with Noob, ....) He said that higher spin would make a disc overstable compared to lower spin.

I think of more stable meaning straighter or more to the point holding a more consistent angle. More stable doesn't mean overstable. Overstable is prone to flexing and fading. Understable is prone to turning over. The most stable a disc can be is holding a disc's angle and line throughout it's entire flight.

Atleast this is my interpretation of these terms and conclusions I've drawn over the past 20 yrs of playing.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Wed May 17, 2006 8:30 pm

oopsy. sorry. i didnt rele pay attention to the last page. i know u know ur stuff, i just got kinda offensive. my bad. i should read the whole thread first.
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Postby Blake_T » Wed May 17, 2006 8:57 pm

the spin discussion is one i've had over and over again. the thing is, that about 50% of the authorities on throwing mechanics say that it doesn't matter and the other 50% say it matters a lot. most physics majors and aerodynamics specialists will say that spin has great effects, but i have yet to meet one that could "prove it" by throwing a disc and showing how it differs. most old school overalls and freestylers will say spin matters a lot.

the hard part is that dave dunipace at innova has stated publically that spin doesn't matter. i've also had some extensive discussions with him on this.

what i have drawn from my knowledge of physics and our discussions is this:
it takes great changes in RPM's to have any noticeable effects on flight, ones that very few players are able to accomplish. e.g. you basically have to double the RPM's (not an easy task) to get a noticeably more stable flight. discs always land before they stop spinning.

also of note, if spin does affect stability in a substantial way, less spin is actually ideal for many shots, including max D lines as it will hold a turn later and get more carry during the flex. this behavior gives more distance than the increased lift caused by spin.

as for over-rotation, i've only witnessed this twice.

once was with a lid and the person got so much spin on it that it turned with the spin (it didn't change angle, just went from moving straight to moving right). the other time was with a putter thrown by someone with a cannon of an arm. this is not something that the average player is capable of.
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Postby roadkill » Wed May 17, 2006 9:38 pm

I believe the significance of spin depends on the situation. In relatively calm conditions on most holes it's almost a non factor.

However in windy conditions I think the ability to impart a high amount of spin on your shots is a big advantage. And I'm not talking about driving exclusively either. The short game suffers terribly in high wind conditions if you don't put much spin on your shots.

After competing for many years I know the strengths and weaknesses of my game very well. I know which holes, courses and conditions suit my game and which do not. High wind is not my friend. Sure windy conditions pushes all scores higher, but my score tends to increase at a greater rate than the average. The biggest score killer for me is wind putting. My short game is usually an asset of my overall game. However in windy conditions I lose this strength as my "money" range shrinks from 25-30' down to 12-18'. My approaches get hurt also leaving me with more 30 footers than 12 footers.

I've played with many "spin" players during windy tournaments that I normally would beat in calm conditions but they take me to the cleaners once the wind reaches a certain level. I know I should work at puting more spin on my shots but some times it's hard for this old dog to learn new tricks.
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Postby Goob The Noob » Wed May 17, 2006 9:44 pm

I'm not saying that more spin will make a 1.5 fly like a 2.5. I'm saying that if you throw a 1.5 and it flys stable (like a 0 rated disc), by adding more spin, it will fly closer to its given 1.5 rating.

Spin effects are quite easy to prove, anytime you throw hard into the wind it's a perfect example of inadequate spin for high speed velocity. It's very educational to throw stable midrange discs into the wind.
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Postby Weebl » Wed May 17, 2006 11:34 pm

Blake, you say how a disc will always drop before it stops spinning, I agree but am a little perplexed as to the nature of the comment. With discs that have yin/yang die jobs Ive seen my drives rocket out with not much spin (1.5 revolutions per second) and by the time it starts fading, it's hyper spinning (4+ revolutions per second). This observation has perplexed me for a while now, and not quite sure how to interpret it as the other players with smooth form dont throw tie died discs, so I can't notice.

I think I need to experiment with a fork grip though for when distance is advantagious over 10' (L-R play) accuracy.
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Postby presidio hills » Thu May 18, 2006 2:12 am

it doesn't make sense that a disc would increase its rpm as it flies since right after release it should be travelling with maximum force (velocity and rpms) and then start losing it throughout the flight.
it is possible that the dye job is spinning at such a specific rpm that it creates the illusion that it is slower than is really happening.
that's my assumption, anyways... maybe there's some weird physics going on i need to learn about.
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Postby roadkill » Thu May 18, 2006 5:48 am

Weebl wrote:Blake, you say how a disc will always drop before it stops spinning, I agree but am a little perplexed as to the nature of the comment. With discs that have yin/yang die jobs Ive seen my drives rocket out with not much spin (1.5 revolutions per second) and by the time it starts fading, it's hyper spinning (4+ revolutions per second). This observation has perplexed me for a while now, and not quite sure how to interpret it as the other players with smooth form dont throw tie died discs, so I can't notice.

I think I need to experiment with a fork grip though for when distance is advantagious over 10' (L-R play) accuracy.



I'm just curious, how do you know the rotation rate of your disc?

The only way I can imagine you'd be able to determine your disc's spin speed at both release and landing is to have multiple overhead high speed cameras filming your shot. And of course the filming would have to be in conjuction with timing your throw.

1.5 revs per second seems ungodly slow for any point of the throw, a drive could easily cover 150 feet in this time. I'd bet your disc is spinning much faster than that. I would estimate 4 times persecond would be closer to the speed as the disc is slowing down but still slower than at cruise speed.


You think you'd give up accuracy going to a fork grip? The fork grip is my accuracy grip, the power grip is my distance grip I use when accuracy is secondary.
Last edited by roadkill on Thu May 18, 2006 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby garublador » Thu May 18, 2006 5:50 am

Goob The Noob wrote:Spin effects are quite easy to prove, anytime you throw hard into the wind it's a perfect example of inadequate spin for high speed velocity. It's very educational to throw stable midrange discs into the wind.


That doesn't prove anything about spin. That only proves that discs act more understable at higher velocities. You have to come up with an experiment where every single other factor is the same, but the spin changes for each throw and then plot out the flight paths. You'd need some sort of mechanical throwing device and a constant wind velocity to do that.
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Postby roadkill » Thu May 18, 2006 6:06 am

I don't think you need thousands of dollars of grant money to commission a study and expensive equipment to draw conclusions on spin effects.

I've played rounds with players who are also competitive freestylers. It is no secret that these players throw with far greater spin than I do. From playing with these spinmeisters in a variety of conditions I've drawn conclusions by watching the flight of my shots vs the flight of their shots in various conditions. As I shared in a previous post my conclusion is that in calm conditions any difference is rather negligible. However in high wind conditions there are very obvious effects. When I play with these guys in the wind their shots appear to be thrown in say a 5mph wind. When I tee the wind appears to be in the range of 15 or even 20mph. My shots change elevation and line more drasticly as the wind victimizes my shots. Their's may be affected by the wind but to a much lesser degree. If you filmed us individually you'd think we were playing on different days in different conditions instead of the same foursome.
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