Hyzer flip question

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Postby Blake_T » Thu May 18, 2006 9:02 am

weebl:

the yin yang spin affect is an optical illusion.

i do believe most players estimate spin.

innova has paid outside sources to do tests and they have estimated ~10-13 revolutions per second.

however, a graduate student i know of working on a physics PHD and doing wind tunnel testing with discs has come to a similar result as my estimation of 4-7 RPS.

the nature of skips is very related to the amount of spin still on the disc. it is spin that makes discs skip forward instead of left.

presidio:

neither factor increases. however, velocity decreases at a much greater rate than spin. velocity will change ~30-50 MPH while in the air, which is somewhere in the realm of 2/3 to 3/4 of the base velocity and more if the disc is allowed a complete flight. revolutions will decrease by maybe half from launch to landing. either way, a disc that is barely moving forwards late in its flight will still have a good amount of spin on it (fast enough where you can't read the writing).

garu:
very correct on that statement.

roadkill:

while i'm not saying you are wrong, as i do believe you are correct in your conclusions, it's still not something that can be "proven" with that as evidence.

a larger force vector will increase disc flight performance into the wind as that vector will have a strong net positive when faced against the composite force vector of wind and gravity. players with less force (less snap/acceleration) and more velocity may have a weaker positive or in some cases a null or net negative force vector upon launch and their throws will be more affected by wind.

from what you have written about the pro starfire and flash, it leads me to believe your throw is more velocity based.

snap always implies more force. snap increases the spin potential of a throw, but does not mean that the person throws with more spin. most high snap thrower have a lot more spin than players with low snap.

i would say disc rim shape and profile still becomes the determining factor of wind behavior. lower profile discs are less succeptable to effects. discs with rim stabilizers are always more apt to fade if turned over by the wind. i will say that the idealized wind line for distance often has less spin than than an idealized straight line into the wind.

as for the freestyle players vs. yourself, are you throwing the same discs?

overall, it becomes so complicated with additional factors that any hard evidence for spin is difficult to trace since it is nearly impossible to manipulate spin on a magnitude substantial enough to get consistent results.
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Postby garublador » Thu May 18, 2006 9:18 am

roadkill wrote:I don't think you need thousands of dollars of grant money to commission a study and expensive equipment to draw conclusions on spin effects.

I've played rounds with players who are also competitive freestylers. It is no secret that these players throw with far greater spin than I do. From playing with these spinmeisters in a variety of conditions I've drawn conclusions by watching the flight of my shots vs the flight of their shots in various conditions. As I shared in a previous post my conclusion is that in calm conditions any difference is rather negligible. However in high wind conditions there are very obvious effects. When I play with these guys in the wind their shots appear to be thrown in say a 5mph wind. When I tee the wind appears to be in the range of 15 or even 20mph. My shots change elevation and line more drasticly as the wind victimizes my shots. Their's may be affected by the wind but to a much lesser degree. If you filmed us individually you'd think we were playing on different days in different conditions instead of the same foursome.


Actually, unless you're running a controlled experiment, you aren't actually drawing conclusions, you're proposing theories. You're under the assumption that the freestylers are putting a lot more spin on their golf shots than you are, but you have no proof that your assumption is true. While I do know that freestylers put lots of spin on the disc while freestyling, the velocity of the disc is also extremely low (to the point where it doesn't make sense to compare them to golf shots) and they are very good at reading the wind and manipulating the angle of the disc in all directions. It could be that they're just that much better at reading and playing the wind by manipulating the direction they throw, the hyzer angle and the nose angle and the amount of spin they're putting on their golf shots is comperable to the amount of spin you're able to generate.

My theory is that the effect of spin on a disc's stability at a given velocity is logarithmic. In other words at low RPM's chaning the amount spin will have a very large effect on the stability and at high RPM's changing the amount of spin will have a very small effect on the stability. Because of the way humans are put together, we have to impart quite a bit of spin on a disc to get it to fly fast. That amount of spin will almost always put you in the flat part of the graph. We just don't have a way to throw a disc that hard, with no off axis torque and very little spin.
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Postby discmonkey42 » Thu May 18, 2006 9:33 am

Weebl wrote:Blake, you say how a disc will always drop before it stops spinning, I agree but am a little perplexed as to the nature of the comment. With discs that have yin/yang die jobs Ive seen my drives rocket out with not much spin (1.5 revolutions per second) and by the time it starts fading, it's hyper spinning (4+ revolutions per second). This observation has perplexed me for a while now, and not quite sure how to interpret it as the other players with smooth form dont throw tie died discs, so I can't notice.

I think I need to experiment with a fork grip though for when distance is advantagious over 10' (L-R play) accuracy.


This is actually an optical illusion. It is very similar to watching car rims or bicycle wheels spin. As you're watching a wheel spin on a car, it looks like the wheels are sometimes spinning backward, staying still, slowly spinning forward, etc. This has to do with how often your eye picks up the moving pattern. As the wheel slows, your eye "catches up" to the moving pattern and the wheel now looks like it is spinning faster right before it stops because you are seeing every revolution. You can't count on watching the dyed spot of a disc to count revolutions because it is spinning too fast for your eye to pick up every revolution. I'm sure someone else can explain it more clearly, but that's what you are seeing.
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Postby roadkill » Thu May 18, 2006 5:49 pm

Garu,

I'm not saying my anecdotal evidence and personal experience is proof. However since I've experienced the same results repeatedly many times it is enough for me to draw a conclusion. Conclusions can be personal unlike a law or universal thereom. I understand why others may not draw the same conclusions without having experienced the same thing.

A theory to me is based more on logic (thinking) and rational. When I draw conclusions, (repeated) personal life experience trumps academic theory everytime.

How do I know these freestylers throw with more spin? Because on occassion I've "served" freestylers and the receiving styler has too respin their nail delay much sooner when I'm serving than when their fellow styler/ discgolfer serves it.

Yes, when I noticed the flight differences we were usually throwing comparable discs (obviously not the exact same disc, but similar if not the same mold). The anecdotal evidence has happened too many times for me to ignore. My placing and round ratings at windy courses is more evidence that has been another telltale sign again and again. Brandywine is the windiest course in my area and I've had so many poor rounds there. I attribute it to the wind that is almost always present. One time I played it in the evening when it was calm and shot a lights out 45. My tourney average there is typically 59-62. I've never played in calm conditions there during a tourney (around 15-20 tourneys I've played there).
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Postby Weebl » Thu May 18, 2006 11:29 pm

discmonkey42 wrote:This is actually an optical illusion. It is very similar to watching car rims or bicycle wheels spin. As you're watching a wheel spin on a car, it looks like the wheels are sometimes spinning backward, staying still, slowly spinning forward, etc. This has to do with how often your eye picks up the moving pattern. As the wheel slows, your eye "catches up" to the moving pattern and the wheel now looks like it is spinning faster right before it stops because you are seeing every revolution. You can't count on watching the dyed spot of a disc to count revolutions because it is spinning too fast for your eye to pick up every revolution. I'm sure someone else can explain it more clearly, but that's what you are seeing.

It makes sense, but I know the eye views at ~24 frames per second, which means the disc would have to be traveling close to 24 RPS (i believe, if im wrong, please point it out) to have the optical illusion you speak of; and if I'm throwing with that much snap, then slap my ass and call me Susie.
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Postby Blake_T » Fri May 19, 2006 12:28 am

if it's got symmetry it only has to be spinning on an even # of RPS to generate an illusion.
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Postby garublador » Fri May 19, 2006 6:27 am

roadkill wrote:Garu,

I'm not saying my anecdotal evidence and personal experience is proof. However since I've experienced the same results repeatedly many times it is enough for me to draw a conclusion. Conclusions can be personal unlike a law or universal thereom. I understand why others may not draw the same conclusions without having experienced the same thing.

A theory to me is based more on logic (thinking) and rational. When I draw conclusions, (repeated) personal life experience trumps academic theory everytime.

How do I know these freestylers throw with more spin? Because on occassion I've "served" freestylers and the receiving styler has too respin their nail delay much sooner when I'm serving than when their fellow styler/ discgolfer serves it.

Yes, when I noticed the flight differences we were usually throwing comparable discs (obviously not the exact same disc, but similar if not the same mold). The anecdotal evidence has happened too many times for me to ignore. My placing and round ratings at windy courses is more evidence that has been another telltale sign again and again. Brandywine is the windiest course in my area and I've had so many poor rounds there. I attribute it to the wind that is almost always present. One time I played it in the evening when it was calm and shot a lights out 45. My tourney average there is typically 59-62. I've never played in calm conditions there during a tourney (around 15-20 tourneys I've played there).


We're still taking about totally different throws. You don't serve a freestyler with a power grip from 300' away. Saying that at very low velocities they are able to put a lot more spin on the disc doesn't show that they put significantly more RPM's on a disc at high velocities. The angle of the disc and the direction they throw with respect to the wind have a very large effect on a discs flight. Most anyone with disc sport experience will tell you the same. You have no way of knowing that any extra spin they may or may not be putting on the disc is what's making the discs fly better.
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Postby roadkill » Fri May 19, 2006 7:46 am

I readily admit my observations and conclusions aren't based on hard science in perfect controlled circumstances.

The spin/snap difference is basicly the only difference that I've observed between me and other players that are better wind players. Occassionally I get slightly nose up which can be a real problem in the wind, but it is only once in a while and is ever so slight that typically I'm the only one that notices it because I feel it more than see it.

My technique overall is fairly sound and these guys who are beating me in the wind are often players I take to the woodshed in non-windy conditions. And if you think it's because I don't know how to play the wind I believe you're mistaken. I am always conscience of wind direction and its effect on my shot. I'm always thinking ahead so my approach or putt is with the wind instead of against it

It could be that with less spin a disc will fade more and in the fade the underside of the disc can get exposed to the wind which could double or triple the length of this fade.

I guess I'm stubborn because wind has been my nemesis for nearly two decades and I've spent a great deal of time experimenting and practicing for wind and watched better wind players for a clue and after many years, the spin difference is the only difference I've ascertained.
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Postby Blake_T » Fri May 19, 2006 9:01 am

And if you think it's because I don't know how to play the wind I believe you're mistaken.


not to be rude, but if players you normally stomp regularly beat you when it's windy, then i would probably say that you aren't playing the wind very well.

It could be that with less spin a disc will fade more and in the fade the underside of the disc can get exposed to the wind which could double or triple the length of this fade.


i would say that if wind gets exposed to the underside of the disc during the fade it will double or triple the length of the fade regardless of how much spin is on the disc (kite/sail effect).

i've found the secret to wind play is line/disc adjustment playing towards and compensating for the tendencies of the wind.

is there a particular type of wind that rips you?

i've found all seasoned players generally have situations where wind is their nemesis (whereas most newer players will get butchered by all wind), but usually only situations.

whether it be headwind putting, headwind driving, etc.

my nemesis is > 15 mph tailwinds on drives and > 25 mph headwinds on approaches in the 75-125' range.

tailwinds mess with me because i have trouble finding the ideal compensation since a huge pull will overthrow by 10-20% and even the slightest underthrow will generally pull up 20-30% short.

i personally prefer having crosswinds in nearly all situations to pure head/tail, including putting.

not sure if this will affect things, but sounds like you might benefit from throwing true stable drivers when it's windy out :P[/quote]
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Snap = Spin?

Postby Craig » Fri May 19, 2006 11:31 am

I am having trouble understanding if snap is what adds spin, or does it contribute to velocity? Both?
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Postby roadkill » Fri May 19, 2006 1:35 pm

I know we've drifted far off the original hyzerflip topic, but my wind challenges perplex me so I'll bite again...

I said that I'm knowlegeable about wind and playing it, I didn't say I'm successful. I fully know that tailwinds make my discs drop and increase their stable properties while headwind cause my discs to rise and decrease their stable properties. I understand what happens when I expose the underside of the disc as well as expose the topside. I can predict what happens my rollers in wind from different directions. I could go on and on about different strategies and options. However, even armed with all the knowledge I have trouble scoring well.

I've boiled it down to my short game. Off the tee I'm usually in good shape. It's the approaches and putts that kill me. This is the exact opposite in normal (calmer) conditions.

For example at Brandywine there are two ways to score well: string threes on the longer (500-600') holes or birdie the shorter (250-350) holes. This course features huge elevation changes in addition to length so mistakes are often costly especially when it's howling.

I have the most difficulty in two situations.

One is the 200-300' approach in a hard R to L crosswind. When I throw hyzer I never know how far left it will carry . Sometimes I get the elevator up an extra 5-10 feet and this carries an extra 30 feet left. Other times I expect the big carry and it doesn't carry as far as I anticipated. If I throw annie it's very difficult to get it to move R against the wind and can drop too quick. If I throw flat straight at it from 200+ feet I have difficulty with distance control. Of all options I'm probably most successful throwing slightly L to R about 10-12' high. Of course obstacles would dictate if this option is even available.

The other major problem I have is wind putting. It's usually a height problem more than a L to R issue. The hardest for me is straight into a headwind. I have putts that are headed straight for the chains and then two thirds of the way there they bounce up two feet and either hit the number plate or sail right over. Of course when I anticipate this happening it never does and it doinks into the front of the basket.

The wind putting problem I'm pretty sure is due to the fact that my normal putt is noseup. This style of putt is an assest in calm conditions as I don't bounce out. I've maybe had one bounce out in the past 800 putts. But in windy conditions I get unpredictable rises. I try to change my disc's attitude for wind putts but it's not my natural shot

I suppose it's not out of the realm of possibility that a slight nose up could be killing me on my long approaches also. It doesn't look or feel that I'm nose up but it is a possibility.

Unlike you Blake, the tailwind is my favorite wind. It decreases the amount of L/R play my shot will have. I can get crazy distance off the tee, my rollers go forever and I putt best with the wind at my back. Distance control is not a problem for me either.

Our styles appear to be opposite, we'd prolly make a good doubles team.
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Postby Blake_T » Fri May 19, 2006 5:07 pm

Craig:

snap can increase spin but does not always. it DOES always increase velocity.

basically, higher snap throwers have higher spin potential, but it does not mean they have more spin.

a lot of the spin behavior comes out of the behavior of the lock release the wrist orientation through the finish.

roadkill:

headwind cause my discs to rise and decrease their stable properties.


this is very nose angle and trajectory related. if you have a ton of nose down on a low line drive, the headwind will actually reduce lift, similar to how nosedown headwind putts get smacked down.

One is the 200-300' approach in a hard R to L crosswind.


this is a situation where i promote a very overstable disc. if the terrain permits, i'll try to rip a very wide hyzer with an intent on skipping or knifing into the back right quadrant around the basket, leaving either a tail wind, or at worst, a L/R crosswind. often i will aim this ~80-100' to the right of the pin. the reason why the super overstable discs will aid in this line is that they will bank towards vertical as they fade which will actually reduce the overall fade distance by taking off glide (whereas a stable to understable disc will continue to carry).

if the line does not permit it i will generally throw a flex shot with a very overstable disc, again trying to plop down in the back right quadrant.

for headwind putts i generally release from lower (few inches above my knee) with a strong finger spring and wrist pop basically throwing a putt that rises about 6-12" and then holds flat. i can also throw a putt that starts flat and apexes where it banks slight nose down. on headwind putts i'm generally trying to hit chain 4" above the nubs.


I suppose it's not out of the realm of possibility that a slight nose up could be killing me on my long approaches also. It doesn't look or feel that I'm nose up but it is a possibility.


it's not always a factor of being nose up, just often "not enough nose down."
disc selection becomes paramount for wind play as well, and discs with natural stabilizers will generally trump everything else.

i don't think our styles are probably all that different aside from the fact that i take what people often say are "strange lines." i play pretty much by the numbers. the wide open shot is generally the one i choose and thus being, i try to be proficient at every type of shot, even if it's something difficult e.g. a 50' high knife hyzer over the top. however, i am a great doubles partner :P i'm good for about 5 drives per round, have every saving shot ever invented in my bag, and can putt.

i believe the real philosophical difference is that you tend to favor things that suit your game whereas i try to suit my game to things. i'm sure yours is more consistent than mine, whereas i'm more of the jack of all trades, master of none.
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Postby Pagan » Fri May 19, 2006 11:22 pm

roadkill wrote: The wind putting problem I'm pretty sure is due to the fact that my normal putt is noseup. This style of putt is an assest in calm conditions as I don't bounce out. I've maybe had one bounce out in the past 800 putts. But in windy conditions I get unpredictable rises. I try to change my disc's attitude for wind putts but it's not my natural shot


You just gotta make sure all you lies are upwind of the basket so you got that downwind putt LOL :-)

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Postby roadkill » Sat May 20, 2006 8:10 am

You just gotta make sure all you lies are upwind of the basket so you got that downwind putt LOL :-)

Pagan


You may be kidding but that's actually my strategy most times in heavy wind. If I have a fierce R to L wind I am trying to end up just right of the basket so the wind's at my back. In heavy wind I'm much better at a 30' tailwind putt than a 18' headwind putt.

Rumor has it that Climo employs a similar wind strategy.
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Postby Weebl » Sat May 20, 2006 8:22 am

Climo is also sponsored for a reason :P

Unless it's a headwind puttt/upshot, i always try to get the wind on the top of the flightplate so i can know it will drop like a rock, if my line doesn't accomidate I use my overstable Roc and throw flat/compensate for the wind direction/strength
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