Seth Project and the Crippled Old Man (wrist extension)

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Postby JR » Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:30 pm

geoloseth wrote:
JR wrote:Doesn't the 2 o'clock happen for you when the elbow is already straight for bent elbow throws?


Yes, the wrist should be opening up to 12 o'clock when everything is hit. The wrist should then flex to about 2 o'clock after the disc is already released.


So you aren't trying to hyper spin the disc by letting the wrist open to 2 o'clock and release there. I got the impression first that you were trying to do that. From the powering of the wrist opening part. There seems to be two ways of doing it too. You're following through with the wrist after the hit and I've used more wrist travel for power and especially spin generation to the disc. With the only follow through coimng from shoulder and lower body parts. I stopped my wrist at 2 o'clock except when I missed stopping and got very sore from the extra stretching.

Hyper spin is taxing to the body and must never be done with cold unstretched muscles. Ask me how I know.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby geoloseth » Sat Apr 26, 2008 4:01 pm

JR wrote:
geoloseth wrote:
JR wrote:Doesn't the 2 o'clock happen for you when the elbow is already straight for bent elbow throws?


Yes, the wrist should be opening up to 12 o'clock when everything is hit. The wrist should then flex to about 2 o'clock after the disc is already released.


So you aren't trying to hyper spin the disc by letting the wrist open to 2 o'clock and release there. I got the impression first that you were trying to do that. From the powering of the wrist opening part. There seems to be two ways of doing it too. You're following through with the wrist after the hit and I've used more wrist travel for power and especially spin generation to the disc. With the only follow through coimng from shoulder and lower body parts. I stopped my wrist at 2 o'clock except when I missed stopping and got very sore from the extra stretching.

Hyper spin is taxing to the body and must never be done with cold unstretched muscles. Ask me how I know.


No, I'm not trying to hyper spin the disc out of my hand. I am applying some force to the wrist to get it to open up to 12 o'clock when my arm hits and any wrist flexing after that is subsequent to that motion. The opening of the wrist during the pull is to get the wing of the disc ( which is pointing at your chest during the pull) to be the leading edge when your arm hits and the disc releases. This causes the disc to have extra momentum and spin along with a nose down flight. It's kind of like what Blake mentioned for putting with a release at 6 o'clock except applied to a drive. If you watch someone throwing this way the disc moves on a separate arc and travels from low to high and will leave the hand with the nose down. This is the best way, and I feel the correct way, to throw drives nose down with +30' of air. You don't need to preload the disc in the pad of the thumb or use trick grips to achieve this.
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Postby JR » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:04 am

geoloseth wrote:
JR wrote:
geoloseth wrote:
JR wrote:Doesn't the 2 o'clock happen for you when the elbow is already straight for bent elbow throws?


Yes, the wrist should be opening up to 12 o'clock when everything is hit. The wrist should then flex to about 2 o'clock after the disc is already released.


So you aren't trying to hyper spin the disc by letting the wrist open to 2 o'clock and release there. I got the impression first that you were trying to do that. From the powering of the wrist opening part. There seems to be two ways of doing it too. You're following through with the wrist after the hit and I've used more wrist travel for power and especially spin generation to the disc. With the only follow through coimng from shoulder and lower body parts. I stopped my wrist at 2 o'clock except when I missed stopping and got very sore from the extra stretching.

Hyper spin is taxing to the body and must never be done with cold unstretched muscles. Ask me how I know.


No, I'm not trying to hyper spin the disc out of my hand. I am applying some force to the wrist to get it to open up to 12 o'clock when my arm hits and any wrist flexing after that is subsequent to that motion. The opening of the wrist during the pull is to get the wing of the disc ( which is pointing at your chest during the pull) to be the leading edge when your arm hits and the disc releases. This causes the disc to have extra momentum and spin along with a nose down flight. It's kind of like what Blake mentioned for putting with a release at 6 o'clock except applied to a drive. If you watch someone throwing this way the disc moves on a separate arc and travels from low to high and will leave the hand with the nose down. This is the best way, and I feel the correct way, to throw drives nose down with +30' of air. You don't need to preload the disc in the pad of the thumb or use trick grips to achieve this.


I know this and agree.

For people wanting to visualize what these arcs look like done by perhaps different methods(haven't looked lately and don't remember) check the thread I read a nice thesis about long throws. There's a link to a thesis where actual throws of Norwegian top throwers were measured by high speed cameras and the motions were recorded so there are wire frame models showing how each body part and the disc moves through the entire throw. Only from the hips up IIRC. In these cases pictures may be more than a thousand words :-)
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby Dale » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:57 pm

Fascinating thread.

I just can't seem to snap a disc strongly or correctly from a cocked position - I lose my wrist-down orientation and seem to lose a LOT of power as well. I need to keep some tension on my wrist and try to keep my wrist uncocked ( I think it bends back to cocked to some extent) to get some power in the snap and prevent losing my wrist-down position. This is not true of my forehand - I can pre-cock to the max and get tremendous snap and spin, although not always with accuracy, and sometimes I get lots of OAT.

I throw my forehand exactly as described by the author of this thread, uncocking my wrist strongly AS I bring my arm forward. If I do it too late it can get ugly. If I want more fade or less distance I take some spin off of it - I don't extend as much, or as strongly.

Are some backhanders predisposed to getting their wrists down easier, and farther? My wrist doesn't seem as flexible as those shown in some of the pics on this site/forum. My wrist also doesn't stay at the same level of "downness" :roll: throughout the full range of motion.
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Postby roman » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:14 pm

I think I may have felt whatever you guys are describing in this thread. My average D with a Buzz is 300-350ft. Whatever I did on one of the drives today felt like a damn catapult loading up and then unwinding right at the rip. The Buzz blasted out on the cleanest hyzer flip line I've ever seen. It didn't turn over much, just flipped straight and faded back left 400 feet down the fairway (no wind). That's Beast/Wraith territory for me. Unreal. I couldn't repeat that throw or that feel again. I need to figure it out, because it was great.
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Postby Blake_T » Sun Apr 27, 2008 5:02 pm

dale:

sounds like the disc may be leaving too close to your body and not far enough out in front.

roman:

welcome to your first experience with feeling the hit and big snap.
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Postby JR » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:38 am

Congrats Roman!

I'm in the same situation as Dale. I was wondering if starting the throw with wrist not down until almost the hit would help? Bending the wrist down close to the or during the wrist uncocking. Haven't tried this yet. Scott Stokely talked of something like this but I don't know if he meant this method. He wasn't clear.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby Dale » Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:30 am

dale:

sounds like the disc may be leaving too close to your body and not far enough out in front.


I will try to observe if that is true. What should I do if that is the case? Grip it more tightly near the hit?

One nice thing - my backhand is traveling just 20-30 feet shorter than my forehand, so I now have no reason to throw primarily forehand if my distance and accuracy keeps improving with the backhand. My problem is that changing my grip and nearly everything else about my backhand has left me with a very inconsistent throw, and particularly an inconsistent release. When I do it right its beautiful, but it only happens about every 4-5 throws. Practice!

On a side note: I expected to do best backhand with slower drivers and mids, but my best throws have been with a 165 Champ Orc - farther and more accurate. Maybe its the lightness of the disc. I've always loved Orcs. They just feel good in the hand and are so predictable.
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Postby Beetard » Thu May 08, 2008 7:48 pm

Let's hear some more. You guys still working on this in the field? (Bradley & Seth)
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Postby Bradley Walker » Thu May 08, 2008 8:06 pm

Seth won't buy the driver needed to rip the videos from the disc.

I had my last shot in my back today, so I can stop being sore now and start feeling better. I am working on learning a totally different method of foot pivot to get the strain off my back. So, that will take some time.
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Postby geoloseth » Thu May 08, 2008 9:28 pm

Well I've just about exhausted all my search know how to find a free version of the software. If I don't find anything tonight I'm going to head to best buy/ fry's tomorrow to pick up something simple that will do the trick.

Brad- I wouldn't rush the video upload. I've watched them a few times now and you look pretty goofy when you throw. By the way, Brad's new nickname is THE BRISKET! I would like everyone to refer to him that way from now on.
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Postby mark12b » Thu May 08, 2008 11:36 pm

today i finally got out to the course after almost 3 weeks off and tried working on wrist extension and the thumb/index-pivot rip. similar problems as tim, i sprayed a few of the drives off to the left or right. but overall i was getting my gazelles significantly farther than before, maybe 310 - 320 rather than 290 - 300. and the good shots were accurate too.

another benefit is that it seems like keeping the wrist loose until the rip is easier on my tennis elbow -- i can definitely feel how snapping the wrist when it's tight puts more tension on the tendon near the elbow. the grip adjustments help with this a lot. by treating the rip point more as a through-the-flightplate pivot i'm able to grip strongly without a lot of tension in the hand and wrist.
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Postby Jerrod » Fri May 09, 2008 10:50 am

Lots of good free video tools here.

http://www.doom9.org/
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Postby Bradley Walker » Fri May 09, 2008 11:10 am

geoloseth wrote:Brad- I wouldn't rush the video upload. I've watched them a few times now and you look pretty goofy when you throw. By the way, Brad's new nickname is THE BRISKET! I would like everyone to refer to him that way from now on.


My nearly non existent self esteem is now completely exhausted.

I said I was crippled. Posting them will only serve to exact the response "well, he sucks..."
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Postby rehder » Fri May 09, 2008 3:33 pm

Hey I want to see someone throw 500 in an unorthodox form
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