Seth Project and the Crippled Old Man (wrist extension)

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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 21, 2008 11:37 am

There are all kinds of subtle things you can do to release the disc with a pivot.

One of the easiest is manipulating the pinch point between the thumb and pointer finger (which is the pivot point and rip point).

Finger pressure up into the plate equal more nose down and more tendancy to anhyser. It will also create some torque and wobble if the rip is not clean. I believe this promotes a wrist roll over.

More thumb pressure equals more nose up or nose neutral and more hyser with the cleanest release. This is better for mids and putters and headwind shots with a driver (or hysers obviously).

More pivot before the wrist snap equals anhyser. For power anhyser try as much pivot as possible.

Now that I am pivoting the disc and snapping with wrist extension, arc etc at the same time I can see how much I am losing from lack of grip strength when using wide winged drivers. the smaller the wing, the more violent the pop from the rip finger. Conversely, the wider the wing, the more difficult it is to snap the crap out of the pivot (or it becomes hit and miss).

I have accepted the fact that I have peaked in my throwing for arm speed. I cannot throw any faster... However, I still have plenty to gain from imparting torque into the pivot point of the disc. What I really see is that my "pop" from small winged drivers is superior to the wide winged drivers. If I can figure out how to pop a Wraith the same way I can pop a Roc, TB or Eagle I think I will have something.
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed May 21, 2008 12:16 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:There are all kinds of subtle things you can do to release the disc with a pivot.

One of the easiest is manipulating the pinch point between the thumb and pointer finger (which is the pivot point and rip point).

Finger pressure up into the plate equal more nose down and more tendancy to anhyser. It will also create some torque and wobble if the rip is not clean. I believe this promotes a wrist roll over.

More thumb pressure equals more nose up or nose neutral and more hyser with the cleanest release. This is better for mids and putters and headwind shots with a driver (or hysers obviously).

More pivot before the wrist snap equals anhyser. For power anhyser try as much pivot as possible.

Now that I am pivoting the disc and snapping with wrist extension, arc etc at the same time I can see how much I am losing from lack of grip strength when using wide winged drivers. the smaller the wing, the more violent the pop from the rip finger. Conversely, the wider the wing, the more difficult it is to snap the crap out of the pivot (or it becomes hit and miss).

I have accepted the fact that I have peaked in my throwing for arm speed. I cannot throw any faster... However, I still have plenty to gain from imparting torque into the pivot point of the disc. What I really see is that my "pop" from small winged drivers is superior to the wide winged drivers. If I can figure out how to pop a Wraith the same way I can pop a Roc, TB or Eagle I think I will have something.


I have been trying this out and it has been working pretty well. The thing I can't figure out is the anhyzer problem. You say the finger pressure up into the plate you get more anhyzer or wrist roll over. How did you correct this problem?
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 21, 2008 1:00 pm

Transfer the pressure to the thumb.

More thumb pressure more tendency to hyser.
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed May 21, 2008 1:19 pm

Bradley Walker wrote:Transfer the pressure to the thumb.

More thumb pressure more tendency to hyser.


Hmmm lots of stuff to ponder until I can hit the field.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 21, 2008 7:41 pm

I just threw the longest throw I have ever thrown, and I did it twice in row with the same disc. Wind over the left shoulder about 5-7 MPH. 175 TR.

Nose down anny. I stepped it off at 175 yards. Twice.
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Postby nickster9224 » Wed May 21, 2008 7:45 pm

wow man thats some sick D, is that max d or golf d
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Postby niuvalleycane » Wed May 21, 2008 7:47 pm

I just threw the longest throw I have ever thrown, and I did it twice in row with the same disc. Wind over the left shoulder about 5-7 MPH. 175 TR.

Nose down anny. I stepped it off at 175 yards. Twice.


Which mold Brad?
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 21, 2008 7:48 pm

nickster9224 wrote:wow man thats some sick D, is that max d or golf d


That was a distance line. High (maybe 50 ft) nose down anny.

In my field next to my house (flat soccer fields).
Last edited by Bradley Walker on Wed May 21, 2008 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed May 21, 2008 7:53 pm

niuvalleycane wrote:
I just threw the longest throw I have ever thrown, and I did it twice in row with the same disc. Wind over the left shoulder about 5-7 MPH. 175 TR.

Nose down anny. I stepped it off at 175 yards. Twice.


Which mold Brad?


HAHAHAHAHAHA...

Old mold Teerex... yellow.

My best new Teerex is yellow also. Which is interesting.

I was throwing 4 Wraiths and this old teerex this guy sent me in a trade. I bombed that TR past those 4 Wraiths something like 70 feet TWICE!!! The Wraiths were all lined in a row at maybe 480 and the TR was just sitting out there by itself, and I went back to the same spot and threw them all again.

Same result.

Although I will say my Budweiser orange Wraith was hauling butt when it hit the ground. It had the speed and angle to go big if I had hit the height.
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Postby rehder » Thu May 22, 2008 12:38 am

man that is sick...nice throw.....So when do we get to see a clip of you throwing?
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Postby JR » Thu May 22, 2008 1:31 am

Awesome Bradley!!! Congratulations!

Did you throw from a stand still or one step or is your back better? My physiatrist said that the minimum time for recuperation from a back injury for the soft tissues is 6 months with correct rehab and avoiding x steps. I showed him the throwing mechanics of DG and he was in horror of our sport :-(

I think I've been throwing distance line annies to 50' apex recently but am nowhere near your level of improvement in D. Although only in one session tired, thick clothes, cold, no wind during the best throws on the throwing spot and rear wind if any. etc. I did it on a soccer field and it's way too short like 110 yards end to end in the markings. The field is longer. 474' roller into a fence. The field near you must have two soccer fields end to end then?

Have you measured at least in ballpark figures how fast the disc flies out of your hand? I'd like to be able to compare you to me and the results of Theo Pozzy measuring pros in distance competition in 2000. With less than perfect conditions I threw a 166 Wraith for the first 0,01666... seconds (60 FPS frame rate of the camera) at 63,5 MPH. 59,3 MPH for 175 Champ Teebird.

The accuracy of the findings is very susceptible to measuring error as I tried to pick videos where geometry errors, that are uncorrected in the calculations, were as small as possible without trying to minimize them by having my friend film from farther away with zoom. That'll have to be done some day. Hope to borrow a higher resolution 100FPS camera from a friend for that. Eventually after healing up and learning new things. Too little practice with all the new ideas for max D annies. And new lighter discs for hyzer flips/annies arrived yesterday :-)

I don't push my index finger up into the flight plate normally and don't currently try to force the tip of the thumb down as it restrains the wrist extension by tensioning up the muscles. I'll have to give index up a try for max D annies because I had trouble throwing as high as I can and getting a disc to beyond 75 degrees vertical which should add some D for me. Thanks for the tip. With "only 75 degrees of anny at the apex forward speed was gone for the highest of throws so I need the steeper anny or a little less height. I'm not ready to give up on higher apexes although they obviously strained my muscles more. In shoulder area and upper arm.

I was thinking of the finger positioning as it too has an effect on the hyzer/anhyzer angle. Where do you place your thumb and index finger?

I need to get footage of myself on a form wise pure throw because I don't wanna draw conclusions from the poor videos I've got so far. It seems that with poor form I seem to have maybe a tad too early rips. The more I think of the need to hold on to the disc as late as possible the more I fear I'm shooting myself in the foot now. Har har I didn't plan to write that. Irony as two colleagues crashed on my leg twisting it to unusable for a long time. For someone itching to train.

At least my throws don't feel like slips and judging by the direction they're half ok at least. Not too much wear on the skin either. Something to confirm definitely. It could make a world of difference for me. I haven't tried to pinch hard late too concentratedly with index and thumb just before the rip. So it ain't second nature for me yet. That'll need to change.

What do you mean by more pivot before the wrist snap equals anhyzer? Pivot on the plant foot? Pivoting the disc back with the fingers and wrist flex back to touch the lower arm with the disc for more distance of the wrist arc? To accelerate from. Something else?

Which mold gives you the best pop? 16mm wide Gazelle/Teebird/Leopard family? Rocs or putters?

How about best pop vs distance on line drives? Faster discs than 16mm wide wings/Innova speed class 6/7. Avenger/Solf are the usual suspects for faster yet moderately thin winged discs.

I second the want for a video :-D
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby JR » Thu May 22, 2008 2:52 am

Here's a training tool I used successfully to conceptualize the idea if the fling in the video doesn't help.

I have a dyed Teebird and you can see the different sections flicker as the edge and top of the disc have bright ad dark areas that flicker while throwing. I threw at my couch from 5' at low power and arm speed first. Less than putting power for 10'. That isn't putting a lot of RPM on the disc. Then I added arm speed from extending the elbow fast like in a 15'+ laser line putt. Noticeable increase in the spin rate. Then even faster elbow extension closing to but not quite getting to elbow chop speeds of a drive and under conscious effort of muscling the wrist from curled back to hand shaking position and stopping the wrist extension abruptly there. A lot more spin. Then slowing down the elbow chop speed a bit and trying to muscle as fast as possible the wrist extension to handshaking position a couple of times really added a tremendous amount of extra spin on the disc compared top previous best results. The difference is very noticeable on suitably dyed discs. Large stamp help too.

The secrets to getting this release at 6 o'clock of the disc or the rear of the disc are that you need to allow the disc to pivot cleanly not stopping it with your fingers until it rips out. At these low speeds it's automatic really if you put the outermost joint of your index finger or the tip under the lowest part of the disc and pinch the tip of thumb and the index finger part in contact with the disc together. It's forehead slapping time once you see how easy it is. See the disc automatically pivots itself when you stop the arm and the elbow. All you need to do is to give a mild and I mean very mild powered pinch between the thumb and the index finger. Physics takes over everything then.

The law of continuing motion or whatever it's called in English dictates that an object at speed won't stop with an opposing force. Since you're unmoving(hence the need to stop the wrist from moving once it reaches hand shaking position or 10-20 degrees right of it for even more crazy spin rate) the only thing that can move is the disc. Yes you can grip the disc initially at 12 o'clock if you want to but the end result without the disc slipping out early due to granny strength pinch or too tight a grip releasing to the right into your computer at excess speed happens because you pinched too hard and grip locked and don't sue me you've been warned to do it at your own risk or outside :-)

You can't stop a disc from pivoting between the thumb and the index finger with this training method if you allow the momentum to extend your index and thumb to extend straight at the target then stop the arm pointing at the target wrist extended elbow opened fully. No waist and shoulder turn. You're perfectly still just before the disc leaves your hand. The disc _will_ pivot and gain a lot of spin.

It's another posts or threads worth of text trying to find out what in the grip may hinder the disc from pivoting in a full power drive and what needs to change from how probably most people power grip initially. That'd be a worthy effort IMO. Not sure how it would be viewed as deviating from topic in this thread. Thoughts? Questions?

Thanks go out to dgdave for relaying the idea from Scott Stokely about not gripping the rim of the disc with finger tips and not curling around the lowest part of the disc with the ends of the fingers.

Beware that for the unaccustomed skin it'll be painful initially to drive with that grip. Wouldn't wonder if that is the secret of Stokely's side arm distance as that technique is limited by the amount of spin you can generate. As some (who was it on the PDGA board?) say that sidearm has naturally 25 % less spin than backhand. If indeed Stokely pinched so hard that his sidearms didn't slip out early then I can totally see how the spin rate would go so high up without curling the fingers to the rim that he'd be able to put more speed on the disc than others and still maintain the easy and relaxed looking form he has on his videos.

I'm electrified after this exercise and grip now to try it out on a practice field both backhand and sidearm. On continuously increasing speeds up to drives. Advancing with speed and power only so slowly as I can keep my form and the disc from slipping early. Joyful times ahead I'm sure. After drinking a lot of ...you know.

I really do think that my snap problems have been more not stopping the wrist well and abruptly enough and having a wrong kind of power and direction to the fingers squeezing the disc. With perhaps timing errors of starting the pinch and not pinching hard enough in the end. That needs immediate thorough investigation ;-) As it may transform my game. Sooo tickled... I'm in heat to try this out like a poodle humping a leg :-D

Oh why oh why do I have to be injured??? Am I really so thick that I have to be lead to "discoveries" leeching the experience of others and only getting them when I need to slow down to putting power? Aarrgh! The answer is yes according to those that believe in a higher being guiding people along.... How comforting and stroking to my ego :-) The wrong way with a rough file :-D
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Postby Beetard » Thu May 22, 2008 4:51 pm

I got in few tosses today. I really got a hold of my wraith one time and put it in the woods 360 feet away. Very ugly line though. Anny and 30 degrees to the right of where I was aiming.

I think I'm going to start throwing all hyzers and gradually work my way back to flat. That should help cut out my accidental anhyzer problem.

I think I may be dropping my shoulder, but I'm not really sure what it means to drop one's shoulder. Could someone explain that? Where in the throw would it occur? Can you point to a video clip of someone doing it?
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Postby Beetard » Thu May 22, 2008 7:06 pm

Okay, done throwing for a while. I went back out after dinner and pulled my right inner thigh. Had to walk my bike back home from the field. There is no bruising and only a little swelling, so it looks like it was just overstretched, nothing too serious.

I'm going to take a week off from trying to increase my drive distance. Until my leg gets better, I'm just going to putt and maybe work on left handed throws too.
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Postby nickster9224 » Thu May 22, 2008 8:42 pm

Beetard wrote:I got in few tosses today. I really got a hold of my wraith one time and put it in the woods 360 feet away. Very ugly line though. Anny and 30 degrees to the right of where I was aiming.

I think I'm going to start throwing all hyzers and gradually work my way back to flat. That should help cut out my accidental anhyzer problem.

I think I may be dropping my shoulder, but I'm not really sure what it means to drop one's shoulder. Could someone explain that? Where in the throw would it occur? Can you point to a video clip of someone doing it?


dropping your shoulder means you trailing shoulder is higher that your throwing shoulder.
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