Timing

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Timing

Postby bcsst26 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:49 am

I have recently tried to get my hips more involved into my throw. The problem is my timing is way off now and I can't visualize how my upper body should be in relation to my hips. Blackudder wrote this in another thread so I copied it here to talk about it a little.

"i believe this is where the whole timing thing comes in. You need to pivot the hips to start the generation of power, then the arm pull and upper body rotation need to sync up so that your arm extends just as your chest faces up to the target. At that point you have the maximum rotational force on the disc(written by Blackudder couldn't get the quotes to work)"

I throw right hand backhand so I have just performed my cross step and my hips are closed. As I put my plant step down I am at my max reach back and my hips are going from closed to half opened(not sure how to describe this part). Now this is the part that I am having a tough time with. My plant foot hits I start to push my weight onto the plant foot which starts my pull. Should I start the hip pivot next to get my hips to open up toward the target? If so it seems to me that my shoulders would be open to the target before the disc ever gets to my right pec? I always thought the disc should be at the right pec then the shoulders open up? Also when should my left foot come off the ground? I know word are hard to describe it but I like to see myself doing all these things so I can get it down. Thanks.
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Postby garublador » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:40 am

Have you done the drills described in the "Masterbeato's Form" thread, i.e. working backwards from the hit?
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:43 am

Yeah. I have worked on this for a while now. It has helped big time. But when I submitted my last video they said about pivoting the hips etc. So now I am trying to figure out how to pivot the hips and keep the timing down. I mean if you start at the right pec and work on finishing you pivot the hips and finish. If you standstill and reach back, transfer your weight, then pivot I can't see how you get the disc to the right pec without your shoulders opening up first. I think I am missing something so hopefully someone can help me out here.
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Postby black udder » Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:48 am

If you stand still, reach back and close your hips, when you just pivot them, the disc will come to your chest just from hip/body rotation.

What you have is a reachback that drops the disc past your left shoulder. When you pivot your hips to begin the rotation, right before you finish the hip rotation, the disc should be much closer to your shoulder or chest, at that point, you hope to smoothly begin your shoulder rotation and pull as fast as you can.

The hope would be that your shoulders square up right as your arm is extending straight in front of you.

If you're too early with the shoulder rotation, the arm doesn't get around and you can release early or not get maximum snap because your arm is still across your body. If your chest is late getting around then you'll probably get some elbow overextension. For me, my elbow opens completely, which you don't want.

Honestly, I'd work on getting close to this standing still so you can feel when you're early, on or late. Then add the x-step.

Your x-step should keep your momentum going, reach back, plant, push off the left to accelerate the pivot and shoulder rotation.

You don't need to push onto your plant foot, if you're doing an x-step, then the movement (if done correctly and you're not leaning backwards) will put you in the right position.

I believe the best throwers are adding rotational power, not forward momentum to their throw. Thus, when they finish, they're like MB - almost standing still with almost no jetting off the end of the teebox.

I could be wrong about this, but if you look at Aaron's throw, you'll see he's pushing off to the right, instead of a clean rotation, and his shoulders are getting around before his arm. He's getting some wrist snap, but I don't believe it's max snap. My guess is that the push off to the right allows him to throw more overstable/heavy discs because there is a touch of anhyzer or torque on them and that if he was able to delay the shoulder rotation a bit to sync it with his arm pull, he'd change his throw quite a bit.

That's my understanding of it anyway, based off my logic and experience thus far. And this is not even discussing the wrist extension.
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:09 am

Maybe this is my problem then. In my mind for some reason I always feel like the disc should be at my right pec before I begin to open up my shoulders. Lets say I am standing still to throw. No X-step. I start with my right shoulder pointing at the target. For me I I close my hips and reach back. Then I start to transfer my weight to my plant foot and pull. When the disc gets about to my right pec usually my right shoulder is pointing at the target. At this point I start to open my shoulder and pull through with acceleration. So are you saying that I stand still reach back start my hip rotation and never really worry about where the disc is in relation to my right pec when I decide to accelerate? I guess my question is where is the disc when you start to accelerate? Where are your shoulders at this point? Where are your hips at this point? if I can piece these three things together I think I will have a good starting point to work on my standstill throw. Thanks again.
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Postby garublador » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:23 am

bcsst26 wrote:If you standstill and reach back, transfer your weight, then pivot I can't see how you get the disc to the right pec without your shoulders opening up first.
You may need to work on leading with your elbow rather than leading with your shoulder.

When you work on starting at the right pec, the idea is to feel that last bit of acceleration and get down that motion and timing. Then when you move to a reachback and no step, the idea is to feel how to get to the previous step from a reachback position. Everything past the right pec will stay the same. After that it's just adding steps to get yourself into the position from the previous drill. If you're getting to where you're doing a full x-step but haven't figured out how to do the no-step with a reachback then you skipped a bunch of really important steps (no pun intended).
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:58 am

So if I am understanding you correct everything comes back to the right pec drill? When I do the right pec drill my right shoulder is pointing at the target, my elbow is away from my body and I go from there. So if I use a reach back with no step the disc should come back to the right pec with the elbow away from the body correct? Is this the point that the hips should pivot or should they already be pivoting to get the disc to this point. And if the hips are pivoting to get the disc to this point that would mean that the shoulders are moving and when the disc does get to the right pec my shoulder is no longer pointing at the target which isn't the same as the right pec drill then? I think I might be over analyzing but I have no idea where my parts of body should be when I add a reach back. And if I can't visualize this then I have no hope. :cry:
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Postby garublador » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:39 am

bcsst26 wrote:So if I use a reach back with no step the disc should come back to the right pec with the elbow away from the body correct?
Yep, you're literally building your throw from that point backwards. You'll always return to that position no matter what you do before that point.

Is this the point that the hips should pivot or should they already be pivoting to get the disc to this point.
Your hips will be in the same position at that point no matter if you use a reach back or not. Think of your starting position in the "right pec" drill as a snapshot of what's going on at that time. If you're doing something that doesn't lead you through that snapshot you aren't doing it right.
And if the hips are pivoting to get the disc to this point that would me that the shoulders are moving
Correct, but they aren't moving all that quick...yet. I believe this is a crutial point in the "elbow chop" part of the equation. You need the elbow chop to get to this point.
and when the disc does get to the right pec my shoulder is no longer pointing at the target
Why not? You should be in the same position as you started with on the "right pec" drill at that instant in time, but you'll be moving into that position rather than starting there. If you can't get into that position with your runup then you need to rework how you get to that point.

I'd recommend letting some of our real experts validate what I said above before taking it to heart. I'm in the process of learing this stuff as well.

For me, watching videos of Ken Climo, Timmy Gill and Walt Haney have helped me visualize correct timing.
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Postby black udder » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:49 am

LOL

Yeah, it's tough. See if thinking about this in a non-golf manner works.

Imagine a towel and you hold it vertically and then twist it up. Then begin to uncoil it from the bottom. This is the core of what you're working towards.

To understand the power base, stand with your arms loose at your sides. Pivot your hips back, as in a reach back, then power them open and give a little shoulder rotation. You should feel your arm just whip out. If you do not feel that and feel the power of your base, then you're not doing something right. This is a rotation, not a push from your hips. I see lots of folks push from their back leg and spin on their pivot foot. The goal here is to close the hips, then open them. There is no inherent forward motion in that action.

Now, once you feel that arm whip, you want to figure out at which point will it be of maximum effect.

You start at the bottom, your legs bent a little to use your muscles, pivot the hips closed, then power them open. Before you reach your full rotation (and the end of your hip flexibility) you want to begin to rotate your shoulders. This is the uncorking of your power. Your arm will be around your chest area at this time. The timing part comes in coordinating your arm speed and shoulder rotation so that when you pull through at maximum speed, you end up with your arm extending as your chest faces the target.

When that happens, your shoulder rotation will keep your elbow bent a little and the ejection of the disc will allow you to follow through properly and get your palm down for maximum rotation without injury.

Your pull should really start as the disc is around your chest area - right pec is fine. The timing comes in figuring out for you, where your shoulder will be in relation to this pull effort. For some it might be at the target, for others, it might be past the target because they have good arm speed.

Ideally, you want to keep the disc as close to your forearm as you can up until it's ejected from your grasp. Thus, an optimal pull for me would have the disc almost past my chest before my shoulder rotates past the target. If I rotate my shoulders further, then I get a late rip. If I don't rotate my shoulders, then I don't get the power and typically overextend my elbow a little.
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:53 am

Thanks for your help. It is starting to make sense but I still have a few questions. Lets use our man parts for a point of reference. When I start the right pec drill my man part is perpendicular to the target, the disc is at my right pec, and and elbow is away from my body. So now to start this whole process I will assume that I pivot the hips as Blackudder calls it which will allow for my man parts to face the target and I quickly accelerate the shoulder and elbow and finish. Now lets say I add a reach back to the equation. I am still standing still. At the reach back my man part is now roughly 180 degrees from the target. Now do I simply push onto the front foot and get my man part to 90 degrees of the target and the disc to my right pec? Or do I have my man part 180 degree from the target and pivot the hips right away which would cause my man part to go from 180-90-to pointing at the target very quickly. If this is the case then how does the disc get back to the right pec in time to set up the right pec drill?? After all of this rambling I think I am finally to my real questions. As you can see I am not good at explaining myself.
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Postby cmlasley » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:20 am

black udder wrote:To understand the power base, stand with your arms loose at your sides. Pivot your hips back, as in a reach back, then power them open and give a little shoulder rotation. You should feel your arm just whip out. If you do not feel that and feel the power of your base, then you're not doing something right. This is a rotation, not a push from your hips. I see lots of folks push from their back leg and spin on their pivot foot. The goal here is to close the hips, then open them. There is no inherent forward motion in that action.

Now, once you feel that arm whip, you want to figure out at which point will it be of maximum effect.

You start at the bottom, your legs bent a little to use your muscles, pivot the hips closed, then power them open. Before you reach your full rotation (and the end of your hip flexibility) you want to begin to rotate your shoulders. This is the uncorking of your power. Your arm will be around your chest area at this time. The timing part comes in coordinating your arm speed and shoulder rotation so that when you pull through at maximum speed, you end up with your arm extending as your chest faces the target.


This is pure gold. Thank you for elucidating this for all of us. The concept is so hard to put into words and so vital. This is exactly what I've been working on and exactly what I needed to hear to get me to the next point in the progression.
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:31 am

black udder wrote:LOL

Yeah, it's tough. See if thinking about this in a non-golf manner works.

Imagine a towel and you hold it vertically and then twist it up. Then begin to uncoil it from the bottom. This is the core of what you're working towards.

To understand the power base, stand with your arms loose at your sides. Pivot your hips back, as in a reach back, then power them open and give a little shoulder rotation. You should feel your arm just whip out. If you do not feel that and feel the power of your base, then you're not doing something right. This is a rotation, not a push from your hips. I see lots of folks push from their back leg and spin on their pivot foot. The goal here is to close the hips, then open them. There is no inherent forward motion in that action.

Now, once you feel that arm whip, you want to figure out at which point will it be of maximum effect.

You start at the bottom, your legs bent a little to use your muscles, pivot the hips closed, then power them open. Before you reach your full rotation (and the end of your hip flexibility) you want to begin to rotate your shoulders. This is the uncorking of your power. Your arm will be around your chest area at this time. The timing part comes in coordinating your arm speed and shoulder rotation so that when you pull through at maximum speed, you end up with your arm extending as your chest faces the target.

When that happens, your shoulder rotation will keep your elbow bent a little and the ejection of the disc will allow you to follow through properly and get your palm down for maximum rotation without injury.

Your pull should really start as the disc is around your chest area - right pec is fine. The timing comes in figuring out for you, where your shoulder will be in relation to this pull effort. For some it might be at the target, for others, it might be past the target because they have good arm speed.

Ideally, you want to keep the disc as close to your forearm as you can up until it's ejected from your grasp. Thus, an optimal pull for me would have the disc almost past my chest before my shoulder rotates past the target. If I rotate my shoulders further, then I get a late rip. If I don't rotate my shoulders, then I don't get the power and typically overextend my elbow a little.


I guess I was typing my last questions when you wrote this. I think this finally answers my questions. I think I was so caught up on getting the disc to my right pec before moving my shoulders or moving my hips. Back out to the field as usual. I will try this tonight and get back to you with any questions. Thanks again.
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Postby black udder » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:17 pm

okay... let's set up a couple things first.

There is a right pec drill with hip rotation and one without.

In the one without. You stand still, hold it at your pec and snap the disc out and finish. The goal is to start to understand and get familiar with snap and acceleration at that point in the throw.

With the hip, you would do as you'd said, pivot your man parts 180 degrees away from the target, then pointing towards the target. AS you get to around 90 degrees from the target, your torso is going to start to rotate and pull your arm (still reaching back) with it.

It's at this point that the timing is critical. You want your upper body to take over the powerful rotation right before your hips max out and as your upper body rotates, pull your arm through at max acceleration.

You will end up with your hips maxing out close to right at the target, then your back foot is going to kick up, your upper body will rotate and your finish and follow through will turn your body around (which is why you have to be on your heel or toes to allow the leg to pivot instead of twisting the knee).

Now. Having said that. Don't focus too much on the right pec drill. The only design is to learn snap. If you know the feeling you're looking for (i.e. snap), then start to focus your attention on getting your rotational power sync'd up.

I think of it in 3 levels. Hips, torso and shoulders/arms. Each goes in succession to maximize the rotational power. Hips, then torso, then shoulders/arm. Each also has a maximum flexibility range and if you reach that limit before you transfer the power to the next level, then you lose power and risk injury. That's why it becomes a timing thing. You wait until the last moment to transfer that power and then, once transferred, the next portion will alleviate the stress of reaching your max range.

As an example, when you begin your torso rotation, your hips reach their max, but by moving on your heel or ball of your foot, the added rotation of your torso will move you so that you don't just come to a sudden stop.
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Postby WraithMe » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:09 pm

Give this a try and see if it makes the timing easier. Just use your normal footwork and shoulder rotation (well actually after seeing your video I think you need to be faced away a bit more) but do not start your pull until your disc is at your trailing shoulder, which should occur around the time when your leading shoulder is pointing to the basket (Remember you don't need to pull your arm to get to this position, it just happens as your elbow bends and brings the disc in to your body. At that point you just do everything the same begin the pull with a focus on just keeping the disc close to your chest then as you open up to the target you really pull hard and...[BANG].
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Postby bcsst26 » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:41 pm

Well I just got back in from a 2 hour field session. I have to say overall I think it was a success. I feel like I am pivoting the hips and getting power into it. Before my ankle would twist or feel like I am jamming it but my lower body actually felt smooth. I was having trouble of early releases and throwing things anhzyer. I think the early release was from not gripping it hard enough during the acceleartion and the anhyzer is from not bringing the disc close enough to my body? Could this cause it? I feel like when I get it close I get a good throw on the line I intended. The only thing that is throwing a red flag at me now is on my plant leg the side of my leg that is facing the target is sore? Mostly the quad area. Is this normal? I thought it was since I am using more of these muscles for the first time in pivoting the hips. But maybe it means something else that others can pick up on. Thanks for all the help. I will be reading these things a bunch, hitting the practice field big time and hopefully next week after some practice I will post a video so I can get more feedback.
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