Getting snap without slowing down?

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Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby hocusposus » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:14 am

Hello everyone. This is my first post, Ive been reading this forum for the past few weeks to improve my game. Lots of great content here.

I just read the article on the bent elbow technique, and im very confused. There is a section that says to try and get a loud slapping noise of your fingers slapping your palm. To do this i accelerate my arm and then flex my hand while i stop my arm (as seen in the short video provided in the article). Then i tried to get that snapping noise using a disc drive motion with my arm. I think i hurt my elbow trying to make that noise, by stopping my whole arm in an attempt to make the snap noise. I know the article nevers says to stop your hand/arm, but its the only way i could make that snapping noise. Before just now i have been trying to follow through smoothly without any slowdown before or right after the hit.

My question is how can you possibly make that snapping noise without stopping your arm/hand abruptly?

If this has already been covered, push me in the right direction. I couldn't find anything in the stickies.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby jeremy » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:31 am

The snapping noise comes from the disc coming out of your handand and your fingers hitting your palm at release when the disc rips from your grip. Make sure you are following thru, don't just suddenly stop your arm as this could cause damage. I cannot hear it myself, but most everyone I play with they can hear it.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby Beetard » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:38 am

Ideally when you pull through, whether you're using bent elbow technique (reaching back with a bent elbow) or straight arm reach back, what should happen is this

When you get close to the rip point, the back of your hand start moving in the direction of the target. We would call this the opening of your wrist. When it reaches neutral or 180 degrees (neither open or closed) you lock down your grip and forearm muscles. Your wrist stops moving and transfers the momentum it had to the disc like a catapult launching a rock, but the rest of your arm keeps moving.

I don't know how long you've been playing, but I know where I went wrong is trying to figure this kind of stuff out before achieving the proper order of events in my throw.
"The correct order of events begins with the footwork. The feet lead the hips, the hips turn the torso, the torso leads the shoulder, the shoulder pulls the arm, and the arm pulls the disc. Most of this motion is incidental, that is, the majority of the motion is not a conscious movement of the muscles, but the result of a preceding motion that naturally leads the body through the process. You should not be physically pulling your arm and the disc through with your upper body and arm muscles, the arm should be pulled through by the rotation of the shoulders."
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby garublador » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:06 am

Don't worry about the noise. Even when you start throwing really well you'll only get it sometimes. A lot of it depends on your release angle. The sounds you may or may not get are only indicators. They shouldn't be goals since you can get them by means other than throwing correctly.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby JR » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:46 am

You get a popping sound when the disc rips from between index finger and thumb. When you stop the wrist motion the disc will rip from other fingers first until only index finger and thumb hold on to the disc. When the disc rips from the grip the profile of the disc forces the fingers apart and as soon as the disc leaves the fingers will move towards each other and POP! In order that to be audible you need to have quite a lot of tension in the index finger and the thumb pinching against each other and naturally the fingers need to be positioned against each other on different sides of the disc. Also a great late acceleration of the arm helps in producing audible results and hyzers and flat releases seem to produce more sound than annies.

The word snap is used to describe a complex series of events that increase the spin rate of the disc. To avoid confusion the word pop is used for the sounds happening after the disc rips away.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby black udder » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:23 am

Blake has said before that the video is a tad misleading. You don't want to replicate what he does in the video, but that should give you an idea of the feeling you're looking for when you throw a disc. The wrist will snap/pop like that video, but when you throw, your arm is also involved, so the arm continues to move and your wrist just pops from close to open at the rip.

Read the sticky in the technique thread and see if that will help you grasp some more details :)
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby rehder » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:12 pm

FYI, Audible snap does not indicate whether you bomb it or not. Some players that throw far have audible snap and some that dont have audible snap also throw far.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby Blake_T » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:49 pm

that video on the article is meant only to display what happens with the wrist as its in motion.

the wrist closes and then opens. the abrupt stop is more of a directional change as you can no longer move forwards anymore.

the fingers popping against the palm was what i used at that time as a reference point, but i did write that article like 6 years ago and my knowledge of technique is far beyond what it was then.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby Blink » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:04 pm

Careful once you do start hearing that snap, I've twisted my finger when I used to snap it off of just the index instead of 3 fingers. I can snap it just about as hard as I want with 3 fingers taking the recoil.

I've played with a guy before who was getting the audible snap on every drive (sounded like just 1 finger). He said he had to have surgery on his finger due to it and now he ices it after he plays...
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby hocusposus » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:55 pm

Thanks for all the replies! i was really only expecting one or two replies by the time i got off work.

I have been only playing for 5 months and i thought i was getting huge improvements in my game. I could throw 285' and 320 max D. Until i came here and did some reading. I was throwing a destroyer (no need to comment on this ive been reading) and turning it over sometimes or having it turn to the right first before flexing back slightly at the end. Now im convinced that my throw is due to OAT.

I was throwing using my hips and shoulders, but i was never actually letting them pull anything. I was always using my arm muscles and shoulder muscles in conjunction to move those appendages. I was also cocking my wrist and gripping the disc tightly the entire time. Then i read the bent arm article and it says to do everything the complete opposite of what ive been doing.

So, I went to a field on my way to work and got in around 40 throws. It is the weirdest feeling to TRY and let my hips pull my shoulder and almost as weird to let my shoulder pull my arm. It took me like ten minutes of moving in slow motion to even start to get a feel for it. I still don't think im completely letting my hips do all the pulling. I also removed my x-step for this session, and I didn't actually get the disc to go as far as i usually do. They were going around 250-270'. Most of the discs came out of my hand about 15-20° right of my target.

So my next question is, The hips should be pulling the shoulder and the shoulder should be pulling my arm. Only after the disc has passed my left peck should i use any arm muscles, and only at the hit should i flex my wrist and hand. So should I be using any muscles at all from my upper body except to stablize the disc? What angle should my shoulders and hips be at when i start to actually accelerate my arm through? And why does my back and right shoulder feel sore? Maybe not stretching before hand? And is it really that dangerous for my index finger to throw like this? I use a one finger grip and use the other three for support.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby black udder » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:59 pm

I'd throw slower right now until you get the hang of it. Not 40' slow, but throw smooth where you should get over 100' or so. I've said it before, so I'll say it again, get a handful putters and practice with them. It'll be a lot less work running after them, you'll see your form mistakes right away (if they start flipping and rolling) and you'll get a bunch of practice with a disc you can drive and approach with much more than you realize.

Stand up, grab a disc and pivot your right knee into your left knee. Then turn your shoulders so the backs of your shoulder blades point to your target. Your arm should be straight out with the disc in a direct line to your target. Your goal is to bring that disc in a straight line from where it is now to right at your target. You pivot your hips and it'll bring the disc to your left shoulder (and your shoulders will pivot a little too), then pivot your shoulders (keeping the disc as close to your chest as you can without hitting it), as you get the disc to your right pec, you'll use your arm to pull as fast as you can to past the point where the disc rips out of your hand. You'll want to "unwind" the disc down your arm as you pull so that it stays next to your chest, then past your shoulder, your bicep, your elbow, your forearm and then when your arm is just about straight, your wrist should flip to the straight ahead position and the disc should zip right out. Your arm will continue to go off to the right as your body momentum twirls you around.

Your chest should be facing the target and the disc should come out fairly close to straight from the center line of your chest with your arm almost extended.

If you rotate too fast, you'll find you get a late release and probably anhyzer because you'll sort of jerk your body upright. If you get your arm speed ahead of your rotation, you'll release early, probably with lots of hyzer and your elbow will probably fully extend (this hurts a little when I do it so I don't recommend it).

Start slowly so you get the feeling of timing between hip to torso to arm pull and rip out in front. Then speed it up. Give yourself a week of slow practice, then pick it up a little. After 3 weeks or so, you should at least know what you're trying for and then it'll be hit or miss until you get the memory into your muscles. Once you can do it standing still, you can try an x-step. You'll really find out here if the x-step is helping or not. You should get a significant boost in distance by adding an x-step, so if you don't, it's not helping you and you should look at what you're doing.

With an x-step, you're just priming your hips so they are closed and building some rhythm. when you take a couple steps into your x-step, you're adding some momentum to your throw and you need to learn how to time it to get the most benefit. If your timing is off, then you'll end up with inconsistent throws, wild throws or a lack of snap because you miss your timing or you pull around your body instead of the straight line in front of your body.

If it helps, imagine that the disc in your hand is stuck in a groove track and it cannot move from it's path. When you pull it across, in order to get over the disc, you will need to move your body into position instead of pulling/pushing the disc to or away from you to put you in position. For me, I do this by standing with my right heel at the height of my left toes, then push off towards my plant foot.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby hocusposus » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:36 pm

Okay i just did a slow motion pull through of what you described. The disc never gets to my right peck, bc im just letting my arm drag behind my shoulder. The disc just sits at my left shoulder while my shoulders rotate until my shoulders are perpendicular to my target. By then the disc is actually passing both of my pecks at the same time. The only way i can see the disc ever passing my right peck is if i start accelerating my arm as soon as the disc gets to my left shoulder.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby black udder » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:11 pm

Yeah, depending on your flexibility, that's pretty close. I know I'm much stiffer than you.

It would be the point at which your shoulders start to pull your arm, then you pull the arm as fast as you can -- hopefully, the arm is already in motion from your shoulders rotating.

Hopefully, you can feel additional power/speed possibilities from starting at the hips and working your way up vs just an arm pull.

What you can see now is that if you just reach back and pull from the rear with your arm that you have much further to pull the arm and it's harder to pull "slowly" and then accelerate late whereas when you rotate and let your body move your arm, you only have a short distance to pull at max speed which should make it easier.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby Blink » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:57 pm

You don't really have to worry about finger injury until you can get the audible snap often or on command, such as any hard throw. If one drive with hard snap would hurt you (strain a ligament), its been for drives over 500 feet for me. Otherwise you would just need to throw 5-10+ drives with some hard snap. Maybe you would feel it then, maybe the next day a finger would feel twisted or sprained.

You can usually identify if you're snapping off of one finger more than others by the sting on the tips of your fingers, the sound of the snap, or even small marks on your fingertips from the spot where the disc is ripping off the fingers. It wouldn't take more than a hard throw or two to see if you could hurt yourself with the snap you can get. In the end it takes quite a bit of conscious strain to injure your finger. Especially in cold weather, the tips of your fingers will sting after a real hard snap.
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Re: Getting snap without slowing down?

Postby Blake_T » Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:01 pm

They were going around 250-270'. Most of the discs came out of my hand about 15-20° right of my target.


pulling to the right can be a mix of weight back, not keeping the disc tight enough, and your pull through coming too early.

Okay i just did a slow motion pull through of what you described. The disc never gets to my right peck, bc im just letting my arm drag behind my shoulder. The disc just sits at my left shoulder while my shoulders rotate until my shoulders are perpendicular to my target. By then the disc is actually passing both of my pecks at the same time. The only way i can see the disc ever passing my right peck is if i start accelerating my arm as soon as the disc gets to my left shoulder.


the shoulder rotation is a 3 stage process.

turned away to perpendicular. disc crosses your chest. perpendicular to faced up.

sounds like you are reaching max speed as the disc passes your chest instead of as the disc gets beyond your body and out in front of you.

working some of the stationary throwing drills should help with this.
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