Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby malinkie » Tue Dec 23, 2008 4:05 pm

I'm in the 300 range now. I don't care how fast the next 100 comes, as long as it does :)
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby CJ1998 » Tue Dec 23, 2008 5:25 pm

Jesse B 707 wrote:
elnino wrote:I can't wait to try this...I watched some video of long drives but i was just trying to copy not really knowign what to do and went from zero to hero from 225 to 325 in one session...can't wait to use this info for another 100feet!!!

what grip are you recommending for beginners throwing 325ft?

Just be prepared for that next hundred feet to come vvvvveeeeeerrrrrrrrryyyyyy sssssslllllloooooooowwwwwwwwlllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyy


Werd. It takes some time. You'll have to remind yourself that very few can throw farther than 400 without tons of time and patience.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby uNicedmeMan » Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:47 am

Had a real good throwing session on Saturday (finally!!).

I was throwing as far as I ever had with much less effort. One thing that I think is really helping me with power and hitting lines is going back to the power grip from the stacked fork grip. With the power grip I can feel the lock point much better and put more into the hit.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby JHern » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:07 pm

CJ1998 wrote:Weird. It takes some time.


This should certainly be true, it makes sense physically. The turbulent drag of an object tends to go as its velocity squared, and the power driving it goes as velocity cubed. So to throw an object twice as fast requires eight times more driving power! And throwing it twice as fast isn't going to double your distance; since the drag is four times stronger the disc will slow more rapidly than before. Basically, to get a 50% increase in distance requires increasing your generating power by a factor of several times!

In the end, it is a process of diminishing returns for your body as well. Throwing that little bit further requires such a huge increase in throwing power that your body can no longer facilitate. This is true of many sports, which is why people have to fight so hard to reduce the 100m running race time by just 1/100 a second, or same with swimming, or pitching a baseball 1 mph faster, etc.. The reason for this limitation is that the faster your muscles extend/contract, the less force they are able to generate. People who are naturally athletic can generate more force at higher speeds than most of us can. We need training to push our muscles up this steep ladder, to the point where power and control can be joined together in a harmony. But still, there will always be a limit, a point of diminishing returns as the chemical reactions in your muscles that make them move can only go so fast.

So, both simple aerodynamical scaling laws and physiological realities point to the difficulties that must be overcome in order to increase distance.

It should also be acknowledged that there are some basic changes in mechanics that can generate new distance very quickly. E.g., suppose you are doing something horribly wrong with your off arm, stretching it straight out instead of tucking it by your side. I experimented with the difference this makes in my distance, and I found that changing this can easily alter distances by 10-20%. Another example is somebody changing from some horrible grip to a power grip, and getting some new rotation on the disc...this will also change distance quickly.

On the other hand, most of the kinds of changes that truly increase distance come the hard way. One should quickly get to the point where small mistakes that can easily be corrected have already been corrected. The rest is hard work.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby JHern » Mon Dec 29, 2008 1:33 pm

My field practice began last spring, for the first time. My drives were all going about 190'-200' when I started. (Note that I've measured distances rigorously on flat ground, using a soccer field of known dimensions and Google Earth's ruler function where necessary. No exaggeration in these numbers.) I began working on various drills, throwing styles, etc., and over a dozen sessions or so increased distance to about 220' with the occasionally somewhat longer and shorter throws.

The first thing that really changed was my accuracy. Drilling in a consistent form to produce some muscle memory had a huge impact on my accuracy, and even with smaller distances I became a par-level player on the course very rapidly.

In the past month I've had about half a dozen sessions with the pec driving drill. I don't have any run-up going on right now (I've stowed the X-step away for later retrieval), very short to no pull and just a weight shift to my plant foot and subsequent shoulder rotation leading the elbow chop. I'm focusing on feeling the hit, and getting the disc to rip out of my grip. Yesterday I was throwing in the 250' to 260' range, which is a nice improvement, but still incremental.

In any case, I'm starting to feel the hit. It feels good! I can throw better distances now without much effort, and I'm not even doing much of a head turn. My first few sessions saw a degradation in accuracy, but now my accuracy is improving back to where it was before. I played a fun round just the other day, putting these new techniques together, and it worked very nicely (though still limited by some inconsistencies in my forehand technique).

But I'm noticing that I'm getting a little bit of Off-Axis Torque or something that is causing the disc to flutter a bit upon release. I figure the OAT costs me at least 10' in distance. Sometimes I feel the tip of my middle finger catch the rim a little bit, and I can work on that. But the general problem is still there, and is new. That will be the next thing I work on, since I want to build proper muscle memory at the hit before moving on to the rest of my throw that comes before the hit.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby Banzai » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:33 am

I believe you may be right about all this, but I think 90% of us are nowhere near having aerodynamical scaling laws and physiological limitations affect us. I believe that nearly all of us throwing less than 400' are simply lacking in form and that we are (if healthy, reasonably fit, not elderly, etc.) physiologically capable of throwing that range.

This is not to say that throwing 400' is easy. But it's within reach simply by form tweaks. And that's why I frequent this board.

Some examples:

The current distance record for male 12 and under is David Wiggins Jr's impossibly long 577'! He's twelve. At 11 he threw 484'. At 10 he threw 399'. If a ten year old boy can do it, so too can a 26 year old reasonably athletic male (me).

The current distance record for female 15 and under is Mary Uhlarik's 410'. She threw 404' when she was just 12 years old! Again, if a 12 year old girl can break 400', then so can I.

This is not to diminish these accomplishments. These kids are the world's best. Not just any 12 year old can do these things. My point is: just about any 20-40 year old should be able to accomplish it with the right training and technique. These kids give me hope. :)
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby black udder » Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:53 am

I agree with that - it's all about form. I believe the unnatural barrier is closer to 500' than 400'. Blake had said that throwing 350' just means you're not doing anything horribly wrong with your form. In less than one year of "getting it" and practice, I've thrown a lot of discs over 360', something I'd done only 2 or 3 times in the previous 4-5 years. It's all about technique and timing. I'm 43, over weight and have two replaced hips, so for those that are younger and healthier, I see no reason why you shouldn't throw over 400' if you put in the time and practice.

Only exceptions would be those that are just not athletic at all. Might just not be your thing, but if you can get over 300', it's all form that's holding you back.

There's a 50+ year old guy that plays locally (he's been throwing awhile), and it's amazing to watch him play our long course. He carries around a classic roc and a driver. The classic roc for all holes under 350'. His throw just looks so effortless. He pulls close to the chest and has great snap. Been doing it for years. Amazing to watch. I'm told that he can still throw almost 500'.

Also, we have Jack Cooksey around here. I believe he's over 40 and he held the master's distance record recently (well over 500').
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby CJ1998 » Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:29 am

It's interesting to consider this stuff. Form is all about habit which means you have to spend time breaking the old bad habits in order to establish new ones. That's where I think all the time comes in.

Having thrown over 400 on occasion, I do not claim to be able to on demand. I certainly can't put a Leopard out that far. I do think it's attainable, but I've been at about 350 for about 5 or 6 months now. I think the main thing is I can go from a one step or a two step and get it close to correct, but when I put the full X step and reach back, I have trouble getting the disc into my chest to allow for the elbow lead.

The other thing is I don't feel quite athletic enough at this point with my footwork. I feel heavy on my feet and I think it's mainly due to fitness. This I think is hindering my weight forward efforts -- holding me back so to speak.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby Blake_T » Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:58 am

distance increases, are for the most part, incremental movement between plateaus until you are at the last one, which is ~350' with fairway drivers, ~400' with distance drivers.

the top floor is like 425'+ fariway driver, 450'+ distance driver. beyond that, distance increases become very small and incremental, and often, unless you are going for a world record, not always worth pursuing as greater score benefit will happen from working other parts of the game.

people don't usually just slide beyond the last plateau (unless they are very tall), they tend to shatter it by 50'+ on the day timing clicks.

small jumps such as from 225' to 275' can happen from really minor things such as going from a terrible grip to an adequate grip, pulling the disc 2" off your body instead of 12" off your body, jamming your pivot, etc.

it's extremely difficult to throw beyond ~325' if you jam your pivot or pull the disc really far away from your body.

in terms of increasing distance to the last plateau, it's generally easier if you are coordinated/coachable than if you are athletic.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby Toomes » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:47 pm

Has jamming your pivot been discussed on these boards? I've been having some knee pain in my plant leg and I think it might be because I'm "jamming my pivot". Not sure though because I'm my not familiar with that phrase.

P.S. - I would do a search, but the search function blows.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby Blake_T » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:55 pm

jamming the pivot = not pivoting = the foot stays put on the ground.

knee pain is sometimes caused by this, but more often by attempting to pivot with your weight too far back.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby Toomes » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:07 pm

Blake_T wrote:jamming the pivot = not pivoting = the foot stays put on the ground.

knee pain is sometimes caused by this, but more often by attempting to pivot with your weight too far back.


Yep, that makes complete sense. I've been throwing in the field a lot lately and I'm having some trouble with getting my weight forward enough. I tweaked my knee last weekend because my foot stayed planted in one spot. Now that I think about it, I didn't have my weight forward on that shot. I was trying the crush one and I think I took too big of a final stride in my X-step. That would explain it.

On shots where I get my weight forward on, I usually can break 400'. The problem is now that I tweaked my knee, I'm scared to put my weight forward over my bad knee. I think I'm making it worse by not getting my weight forward though. I need to rest my knee. :(

Thanks for explanation Blake.
Last edited by Toomes on Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby Blake_T » Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:13 pm

np.

sounds like you probably tweaked your ACL or PCL. i would definitely give it a week's rest or so.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby JHern » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:20 pm

All of the above makes sense. It is nice to know that I'm not yet at the physiological/aerodynamical limit, and that there are a lot of simple form changes yet to come that will result in big leaps in distance.

Blake_T wrote:distance increases, are for the most part, incremental movement between plateaus until you are at the last one, which is ~350' with fairway drivers, ~400' with distance drivers.


I'm at 250'/270'. I'm not sure what my next big form change needs to be, but I'll be posting a new video soon to the critique section once I feel like I'm again at a plateau.

Blake_T wrote:the top floor is like 425'+ fariway driver, 450'+ distance driver. beyond that, distance increases become very small and incremental, and often, unless you are going for a world record, not always worth pursuing as greater score benefit will happen from working other parts of the game.


This makes perfect sense. And indeed, except for some obscenely long courses I've played (I recall Creve Coeur Lake near St Louis, MO), it seems that range up to 400' and with good accuracy and solid putting is what makes for a great game. There really is no need, for disc golf, to go much further beyond that distance.

Yet I'd still be thrilled getting 350' drives with accuracy. That's the point where I think I will really be satisfied, even if I never learn to throw much further.

Blake_T wrote:in terms of increasing distance to the last plateau, it's generally easier if you are coordinated/coachable than if you are athletic.


Probably harder if you're not any of those 3, at least any longer. It's weird, because I used to be very athletic and fine-tuned in technique in a number of different sports...from beach volleyball, to swimming races, to baseball (I was also a very wicked fast pitcher for my age, able to throw curveballs, etc.), soccer (they called me "the foot"). I was also a 200+ bowler for a while, which requires the same kinds of skills in coaching as throwing discs.

I think one problem I have is that I need to unlearn a lot of stuff. A disc throw still feels very unnatural to me as opposed to, say, hucking a baseball.
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Re: Disc Golf Tips and Technique: Driving with Dan Beato (Video)

Postby black udder » Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:14 pm

I could be wrong, but to me, if you want an accurate 350', then you need to be able to throw 400'+. You get accuracy when you're under control and control when you're not throwing for your max distance. I know that for me, now, 300' used to be a long throw, but now it's a control shot.

I do believe that's about right though. If you could throw 350' accurately, you'd get a boost in score (as long as your short game is as good).
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