Disc Speed vs Your ability

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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby Blake_T » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:17 pm

i'm debating moving this post to the equipment thread.

Thank you! Pretty cool to see that with the help of DGR and months of humility, I seem to be throwing mostly the correct discs. I don't throw them at max weight though.


imo, max weight on all drivers isn't applicable for people throwing less than 430' line drives. if you fall into the 330' driver range, your best bet is 168-172g. if you can't throw it at 168g, it's too fast/stable.

How is the viking and what would be a more stable counterpart? I have never thrown one, but this interests me. I was looking at the innova chart and it has the FL at the same speed but more stable which leads me to ask how is the fl?


how much more stable? like... there really isn't anything out there unless you jump up in speed or go like 3 notches in stability. the TL is a downgrade in speed but a notch more stable. the FL is like 3 notches more stable and much lesser in the glide department.

the viking and valk really only have 1 other disc on the market right now that i think is a good comparison to either, and that is the vision. for people favoring this flavor of driver i generally recommend going up in weight ahead of changing discs. i know this violates what i wrote above, but with these discs it's about the only way.

the old mold beast and the wildcat are imo, 1 notch more stable than a valk/viking but also 1 notch faster. when innova retooled the beast they left a pretty big gap between the orc and the viking.

the x avenger in lighter weights only would kind of fit in, but it's also a notch faster. this is only applicable on x avengers that are 172g or lighter.
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby MIdiscgolfer » Sat Mar 07, 2009 8:05 pm

TeamTollandDG wrote:
Blake_T wrote:each disc speed rating roughly corresponds to a speed range. exactly what that speed range is depends on the nose down. more nose down = less speed is needed to generate intended flight path X.

as a rule of thumb, to "work" the disc you need to be able to exceed the upper bound of the speed range. if the disc falls below the lower bound of the speed range (given the nose angle) it will begin to fade. this is why OAT happens when players throw discs that are too fast for them. they don't generate enough speed to get the disc to turn naturally and if they don't turn the disc it fades off too much, too early.

you can somewhat offset speed requirement with stability, but there's a term for fast discs that can be thrown for players who don't have enough power... and that term is squirrely.

consistent distance and control is yielded when players are able to generate speeds beyond the upper bound of the disc's cruising speed range. there are some cases where discs have an incredibly high upper bound and a significantly lower lower bound (teebird, roc, wizard come to mind here) and for these discs it's more a matter of being able to go well beyond the lower bound.

i find it's easier to gauge average driving distance than it is to gauge actual flight speeds (although many of my approximations on actual speed are fairly accurate). i've used this to approximate minimum distances needed to get consistent distance from a disc (although this doesn't necessarily reflect "workable" power levels). basically, the ability to turn a disc over from a pured flat throw is the minimum measure that a disc is a good choice imo (with a few exceptions).

drivers that turn at ~250' of power: sidewinder, cheetah, leopard. archangel, etc.
drivers that turn at ~275' of power: gazelle, polaris ls, XL, cyclone, EL
drivers that turn at ~300' of power: JLS, roadrunner, valkyrie, beast, XS, xpress
drivers that turn at ~330' of power: wildcat, rogue, viking, surge ss, avenger ss, TL, orion ls
drivers that turn at ~360' of power: wraith, SL, orc, flash, orion lf, surge
drivers that turn at ~390' of power: destroyer, force, crush

the "ideal" is something you can throw pure that will turn on a flat throw and fly straight with some hyzer on it.

there's only a handful of drivers that are anomolies in that they are fairly straight but need power in the 400'+ range to see any turn. the Teebird (480'+ range), Starfire-X (430-460' range), X2 (460'+ range) would make that list.


I need a smaller version of this to print out and stick on the foreheads of some people i've been having disagreements with about this subject.


If its on their forehead how will they read it? :? :? :mrgreen:
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby Steady 26542 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:43 pm

Blake,

You said: drivers that turn at ~360' of power: wraith, SL, orc, flash, orion lf, surge

I've always been under the understanding that the OLF required a lower power rating to reach its intended speed? (It's got a power rating of 4 on Joe's chart.) Just curious.
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby JR » Sat Mar 07, 2009 10:49 pm

Blake_T wrote:i'm debating moving this post to the equipment thread.

Thank you! Pretty cool to see that with the help of DGR and months of humility, I seem to be throwing mostly the correct discs. I don't throw them at max weight though.


imo, max weight on all drivers isn't applicable for people throwing less than 430' line drives. if you fall into the 330' driver range, your best bet is 168-172g. if you can't throw it at 168g, it's too fast/stable.

How is the viking and what would be a more stable counterpart? I have never thrown one, but this interests me. I was looking at the innova chart and it has the FL at the same speed but more stable which leads me to ask how is the fl?


how much more stable? like... there really isn't anything out there unless you jump up in speed or go like 3 notches in stability. the TL is a downgrade in speed but a notch more stable. the FL is like 3 notches more stable and much lesser in the glide department.

the viking and valk really only have 1 other disc on the market right now that i think is a good comparison to either, and that is the vision. for people favoring this flavor of driver i generally recommend going up in weight ahead of changing discs. i know this violates what i wrote above, but with these discs it's about the only way.

the old mold beast and the wildcat are imo, 1 notch more stable than a valk/viking but also 1 notch faster. when innova retooled the beast they left a pretty big gap between the orc and the viking.

the x avenger in lighter weights only would kind of fit in, but it's also a notch faster. this is only applicable on x avengers that are 172g or lighter.


There's the Discmania CD that is a variation of a Viking being more HSS and IIRC having been reported to be less LSS. I haven't thrown Vikings. From throwing Valks and CDs I'd say it's a straighter Valk.
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby Blake_T » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:33 am

You said: drivers that turn at ~360' of power: wraith, SL, orc, flash, orion lf, surge

I've always been under the understanding that the OLF required a lower power rating to reach its intended speed? (It's got a power rating of 4 on Joe's chart.) Just curious.


OLF's are pretty fast, but you get a similar flight path at nearly any power level > 275' or so.

they do start to turn a little beyond 360' but it's a very gradual progression as you increase speed/power. most upper powered discs with less defined rim configurations have a rather striking difference in their flight path once you reach a certain critical speed. older rim configurations tend to be more gradual.
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby maks » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:13 pm

i never heard of this chart. thanks for showing!!
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby Timko » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:26 pm

JR wrote:
Blake_T wrote:i'm debating moving this post to the equipment thread.

Thank you! Pretty cool to see that with the help of DGR and months of humility, I seem to be throwing mostly the correct discs. I don't throw them at max weight though.


imo, max weight on all drivers isn't applicable for people throwing less than 430' line drives. if you fall into the 330' driver range, your best bet is 168-172g. if you can't throw it at 168g, it's too fast/stable.

How is the viking and what would be a more stable counterpart? I have never thrown one, but this interests me. I was looking at the innova chart and it has the FL at the same speed but more stable which leads me to ask how is the fl?


how much more stable? like... there really isn't anything out there unless you jump up in speed or go like 3 notches in stability. the TL is a downgrade in speed but a notch more stable. the FL is like 3 notches more stable and much lesser in the glide department.

the viking and valk really only have 1 other disc on the market right now that i think is a good comparison to either, and that is the vision. for people favoring this flavor of driver i generally recommend going up in weight ahead of changing discs. i know this violates what i wrote above, but with these discs it's about the only way.

the old mold beast and the wildcat are imo, 1 notch more stable than a valk/viking but also 1 notch faster. when innova retooled the beast they left a pretty big gap between the orc and the viking.

the x avenger in lighter weights only would kind of fit in, but it's also a notch faster. this is only applicable on x avengers that are 172g or lighter.


There's the Discmania CD that is a variation of a Viking being more HSS and IIRC having been reported to be less LSS. I haven't thrown Vikings. From throwing Valks and CDs I'd say it's a straighter Valk.


Yep. They're less LSS than a Viking I feel, and maybe a touch less HSS as well (more HSS than a valk though).
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby Steady 26542 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:10 pm

Blake_T wrote:OLF's are pretty fast, but you get a similar flight path at nearly any power level > 275' or so.

they do start to turn a little beyond 360' but it's a very gradual progression as you increase speed/power. most upper powered discs with less defined rim configurations have a rather striking difference in their flight path once you reach a certain critical speed. older rim configurations tend to be more gradual.

Thanks for the clarification Blake. Interesting information.
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby twmccoy » Tue Mar 10, 2009 7:42 pm

kaht wrote:
taylor714 wrote:I have read through that article. I always wondered if innova actually had a chart or something, like in order to throw a speed 12, you need to consistently throw 400 feet or something of that nature, but it appears that they are more grouped into classes as opposed to specific speed ratings vs distances.


I don't think it would ever be innova's best interest to put out something like that. They sell way too many wide-rimmed drivers to people that aren't capable of using them correctly (myself included). If a driver came with a label saying "don't buy me unless you can throw 450 ft", it would likely cut down on sales from rec players.

What am I saying.... they'd probably still buy it anyway.


No kidding. I find tons and tons of wide rimmed fast stuff in the lake off 250-300' holes. I'd say maybe 10% of the discs I find on any given hole in the lake are the right discs for that hole based on hole distance.
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Re: Disc Speed vs Your ability

Postby josser » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:17 pm

Blake_T wrote:each disc speed rating roughly corresponds to a speed range. exactly what that speed range is depends on the nose down. more nose down = less speed is needed to generate intended flight path X.

as a rule of thumb, to "work" the disc you need to be able to exceed the upper bound of the speed range. if the disc falls below the lower bound of the speed range (given the nose angle) it will begin to fade. this is why OAT happens when players throw discs that are too fast for them. they don't generate enough speed to get the disc to turn naturally and if they don't turn the disc it fades off too much, too early.

you can somewhat offset speed requirement with stability, but there's a term for fast discs that can be thrown for players who don't have enough power... and that term is squirrely.

consistent distance and control is yielded when players are able to generate speeds beyond the upper bound of the disc's cruising speed range. there are some cases where discs have an incredibly high upper bound and a significantly lower lower bound (teebird, roc, wizard come to mind here) and for these discs it's more a matter of being able to go well beyond the lower bound.

i find it's easier to gauge average driving distance than it is to gauge actual flight speeds (although many of my approximations on actual speed are fairly accurate). i've used this to approximate minimum distances needed to get consistent distance from a disc (although this doesn't necessarily reflect "workable" power levels). basically, the ability to turn a disc over from a pured flat throw is the minimum measure that a disc is a good choice imo (with a few exceptions).

drivers that turn at ~250' of power: sidewinder, cheetah, leopard. archangel, etc.
drivers that turn at ~275' of power: gazelle, polaris ls, XL, cyclone, EL
drivers that turn at ~300' of power: JLS, roadrunner, valkyrie, beast, XS, xpress
drivers that turn at ~330' of power: wildcat, rogue, viking, surge ss, avenger ss, TL, orion ls
drivers that turn at ~360' of power: wraith, SL, orc, flash, orion lf, surge
drivers that turn at ~390' of power: destroyer, force, crush

the "ideal" is something you can throw pure that will turn on a flat throw and fly straight with some hyzer on it.

there's only a handful of drivers that are anomolies in that they are fairly straight but need power in the 400'+ range to see any turn. the Teebird (480'+ range), Starfire-X (430-460' range), X2 (460'+ range) would make that list.


I throw in the 275' to 300' range and use a handful of discs from those listed. I generally try to throw nice and flat and have been feeling frustrated with turning my discs over and feeling that it was issues with my form. There's very little flutter when they come out so I think I'm pretty light on the OAT. I didn't realize that I might have finally moved into the distance/power range where I should be trying to put a bit of hyzer on these things when I throw them to make them fly flat. How very exciting!!! Knowing that makes my recent fieldwork experiences seem much less frustrating in hindsight. I'm glad that I stumbled across this post. As always, you rule Blake.
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