Why Join the PDGA?

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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby scoot_er » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:37 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
Worlds would be more credible if I didn't only make $80 more than someone 23 spots behind me!!!!!!!!

First, why is it necessary for Worlds to be credible strictly in financial terms if the compeition is fair? Second, how does the amount of money difference between places make a difference in its credibility?




BECAUSE MONEY RULES THE WORLD!!!!!!! I wouldn't watch poker on TV if 1st was only getting 5k but many do because of the large purses that they are playing for. Credibility is lacking when the largest purse ever was in 2000 when we had 1/2 as many members and courses in the ground.

Also when 52nd-57th all get $150 that takes away some credibility and when someone in 34th only makes $230 when the entry was $215 it makes the competitors question the event and I think if the PDGA would have a Poll at next year's worlds they would be surprised to see how many are dissatisfied with the payout.

It is pretty sad when the vast majority of MPO players at worlds wonder where all the money goes yet the PDGA brushes the off as an "Angry Mob" who must be organized by some outside source.

God forbid the PDGA tries to fund a premier event which can possibly be used to gain more PR for our sport other than The DOOZ who IMO should no longer have his job and at the very least should be given an evaluation before any more of my membership dollars go to him.

The PDGA spends money on many things I feel are unneeded yet continue to do so and whenever someone brings up something they have an issue with the higher ups in the org seem to turn the other cheek.

Sad thing is Chuck is that you are looked upon as one of the BEST higher ups but many of the others are not liked to much by your touring pros. I was actually surprised to hear people badmouthing BG WAY more than I ever have, the DOOZ more than I have, and Gentry WAY more than I ever have. Just be lucky you are #2 behind Addie and most people still trust you,
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 1:52 pm

I'm sorry but you and others have not made the case for why Worlds lacks credibility because it doesn't have higher payouts. Yes, money rules the world and judges what has value and what does not in the free market. Unfortunately, players skillfully throwing discs does not have much market value at this point. No amount of taxing players to artificially boost the payouts is going to change that perception from those outside sponsors who have the money you feel you deserve for your skills. The money put into the Worlds from the org has increasingly been going to produce a better event and not necessarily payouts unless the hosts snag a big fish. A better run event has more credibility with potential sponsors down the road than a shabby event with higher payouts generated only from those who compete.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby scoot_er » Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:04 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I'm sorry but you and others have not made the case for why Worlds lacks credibility because it doesn't have higher payouts. YThe money put into the Worlds from the org has increasingly been going to produce a better event and not necessarily payouts unless the hosts snag a big fish.\.



How bout this? Worlds doesn't have credibility because it DOESN"T...............USDGC has WAY MORE credibility than Worlds if you ask me and the majority of MPO players. The reason they continue to show up to worlds is because they love the sport and competition and just because they continue to come doesn't mean they are very happy with the event just as many members renew year after year even though they aren't too happy with the job the PDGA does.

Since the PDGA taking in 3 times as much money in dues/event fees it seems like worlds would have grown by now but obviously the org has other places to spend the money the feel is better but if you ask me I HAVEN"T SEEN ANY CHANGE IN 10 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From what Mr. Gangloff says it has been quite a bit longer than that as well since the worlds payout is actually worse than it was in 1996 when you factor in the inflation rate.


Also isn't the big fish catcher guy DOOZLER supposed to be in charge of fishing? If you ask me he hasn't done that great of a job and maybe we should put someone else in charge of catching big fish who has a better technique????


Worlds is the ONLY event you beat 80% of the field and get a 5% profit return on your money. Can you please tell me why?
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby scoot_er » Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:09 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:A better run event has more credibility with potential sponsors down the road than a shabby event with higher payouts generated only from those who compete.



Yes but an WELL RUN event with LARGE payout has an even larger chance of pulling future sponsors since it would make more spectators/competitors want to attend.

People would watch a MIME competition if there was enough money going to the winner and at this point I don't really care about watching and I am an avid golfer. Heck why should I practice when the guys 20 strokes behind me made about the same amount of cash?



One thing about worlds is that it is EASY to get a high rating! I shot 2 off perfect and beat the fiel by 5 a few weeks back and got a 1074 but at worlds shot a pretty good round that was probably 6 off perfect that will be nearly 1060. Sure is hard to have a bad round too no matter how bad you play.

If I only played NT's and worlds my rating would easily be 5 pts higher. Notice the 1002 guys who got 11th? I have to play with him and assume the ratings are correct even though we only have 2-3 1000 rated players at a B-tier.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:07 pm

Also isn't the big fish catcher guy DOOZLER supposed to be in charge of fishing? If you ask me he hasn't done that great of a job and maybe we should put someone else in charge of catching big fish who has a better technique????

Gotta have bait. Successful fund raisers are successful not because they knock on a lotta doors but because they have something people want to buy before they even knock.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:17 pm

Since the PDGA taking in 3 times as much money in dues/event fees it seems like worlds would have grown by now but obviously the org has other places to spend the money the feel is better but if you ask me I HAVEN"T SEEN ANY CHANGE IN 10 YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! From what Mr. Gangloff says it has been quite a bit longer than that as well since the worlds payout is actually worse than it was in 1996 when you factor in the inflation rate.

Only an administrator was making some money holding together the org working from an apartment back then. Everything else was done by volunteers. Eventually, it was too much for voulunteers to be expected to work free for the size of the org and now those tasks are handled by paid employees and contractors. There are still more volunteer activities that deserve to receive funds before our pros if we strive to truly be a professional org.

We have a million dollar facility and courses in Georgia that the org didn't pay for because the sport had credibilty. Columbia County has been the largest sponsor we've ever had but people seem to overlook that. Those who do work that has a market value can and will get paid before so called pros who do not yet have much market value othr than a handful with sig discs.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby abcd » Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:52 pm

Not that it matters but I know several top players that didn't go to worlds specifically b/c of the payout. Same peeps said they'd never miss the USDGC.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:14 pm

I can completely understand that. If you are actually counting on income playing as a pro, then the USDGC is a much better proposition. It has little to do with any market demand to watch pros. If Innova pulled out, the USDGC would collapse like a house of cards and be no more than a regular NT.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby scoot_er » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:05 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I can completely understand that. If you are actually counting on income playing as a pro, then the USDGC is a much better proposition. It has little to do with any market demand to watch pros. If Innova pulled out, the USDGC would collapse like a house of cards and be no more than a regular NT.



I don't even think they are looking to make income they are just looking to not feel screwed!

Can you please answer my question as to why we are 3 times as big as an org yet the payout at worlds is WORSE? Dollar is also worth 27% less than it was in 2000 so in reality we are lagging very far behind.

BTW Chuck some of the things you say are quite elitist and rub people the wrong way..............................many other PDGA officials have this "holier than thou" attitude that turns many off to the PDGA and if you guys could just realize that maybe it would be possible to push the sport and the PDGA farther down the right path.

When I get a little apartment I may just make up my own series where $1 goes to the final which would likely be larger in payout than the current worlds! Heck a little C-tier in AR has more than 1/3 the payout of worlds and that is with half the players.

I wonder why players like Coda and I bitch about the PDGA.?.?.......oh maybe its because we have seen better events ran without the PDGA and all its resources so we ASSume the PDGA would be able to compete with these events when it comes to the "player's hearts"/

The PDGA doesn't change anything because they are bringing in more revenue each year which to them is good enough................even though many of those renewing members want to have thier voices heard in some way by players who actually play the sport and don't just act as PDGA caretakers.


I will renew for my 10 year tag but will also send in a long letter of my disapproval with the org.





SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Why is worlds smaller than it was 10 years ago when the dollar was worth more? Also what were the entry fees in 2000?
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:21 pm

Can you please answer my question as to why we are 3 times as big as an org yet the payout at worlds is WORSE? Dollar is also worth 27% less than it was in 2000 so in reality we are lagging very far behind.

I answered it. Take a look. People that actually do work that the market values are now getting paid and there are still more out there doing work for the org that will deserve compensation before any pros playing. You can run off with your pros to run your own org and worlds. But people doing the same functions as the PDGA will have to be paid and you won't have as much efficiency as the PDGA with your smaller base of pros so it will cost more.

SN is about the size of the PDGA was before it was necessary to add staff. Fortunately they have Jim willing to do a lot of work with other volunteers. If something happens to Jim, there's little stability to necessarily keep that going just like the PDGA before dues were raised and fees gradually raised to provide stability and eventually an official home address and million dollar home FREE.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 6:36 pm

BTW Chuck some of the things you say are quite elitist and rub people the wrong way.............................. many other PDGA officials have this "holier than thou" attitude that turns many off to the PDGA and if you guys could just realize that maybe it would be possible to push the sport and the PDGA farther down the right path.

We do things for the sport in general, for the members overall, and not just the pros despite the fact it's the PDGA. Many of us do it at great personal sacrifice. You really have no idea. If that comes off as elitist then so be it. I can sleep at night knowing I've done my share to move the sport forward including some things specifically to support pros. Have you? Most people have no clue what the various insiders have done AND more importantly are still doing for the sport not just nationally but in their own backyards by running events, teaching players and installing courses.

The fact there is no improvement in payouts has 100% to do with the marketplace and lack of spectators and zero to do with efforts from the PDGA. We could have had three "Dueslers" out there and still not have found any more sponsors because there's no product to sell them. Few want to watch pros, not even our own Ams unless held hostage to get their awards. What part of that reality do you deny?
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Frank Delicious » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:14 pm

Chuck Kennedy wrote:[ Few want to watch pros, not even our own Ams unless held hostage to get their awards. What part of that reality do you deny?


Lots of people go out to USDGC to spectate and it is because it attracts the top pros and is played on a great course. I don't go out and spectate the local b-tier because that's just my friends playing. The only way we are going to get spectators is to get the top pros coming to events. Feldburg and Shultz played a few tourneys around here a year or two ago and plenty of people came out to follow them. The only way to get spectators is to get the top pros to come to well run events.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby black udder » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:25 pm

First of all, let me state I have no delusions about what the PDGA should or shouldn't be. It is what is is now, and I believe that the folks working for it are doing what they think is best. I've also looked at the PGA and the payout is the same, so it's sort of a question about both sports.

Why does disc golf (and golf) payout so far down? It just seems like all the sports I played you were first, second, third or runner up, but looking at something like the Worlds, the payout is 50 deep. If you only paid out the top 5, hell, even top 10, the purses could be much, much larger.

You could say that people wouldn't come then, but isn't that a given considering that I'm always told that people play disc golf tournaments with no expectation of cashing.

And Chuck, you said "We do things for the sport in general, for the members overall, and not just the pros despite the fact it's the PDGA." Boy, you know that's a bad comment. If the AMs pulled out of PDGA membership, it would be a huge hole in revenue, wouldn't it? The expectation is that the PDGA will do something for all of disc golf, not just for the Pros. I guess it goes back to the actual naming, how much of a Professional Disc Golf Association is it when only a handful of people can actually call it a profession?

I do agree that there are many volunteers all over the country that put in a lot of time and effort that is quickly overlooked. I have no reason to believe that the PDGA does not have that same number of volunteers and dedication.

I find it quite interesting that for a sport with players that are mostly super casual and easy going how the varied opinions on how best to grow the game and run the PDGA can bring out the strongest emotions :) A testament to how much players love the sport I guess.

Chuck - I thank all the volunteers I know and I"ll thank you now for your participation and contributions. Most of the guys I know are 40+ of age and when they're done, I don't see any of the younger folks stepping up to contribute. I can only hope that it's not the case all over the country. From the way Scooter talks, perhaps it's not.
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby black udder » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:28 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:
Chuck Kennedy wrote:[ Few want to watch pros, not even our own Ams unless held hostage to get their awards. What part of that reality do you deny?


Lots of people go out to USDGC to spectate and it is because it attracts the top pros and is played on a great course. I don't go out and spectate the local b-tier because that's just my friends playing. The only way we are going to get spectators is to get the top pros coming to events. Feldburg and Shultz played a few tourneys around here a year or two ago and plenty of people came out to follow them. The only way to get spectators is to get the top pros to come to well run events.


Yeah, a friend of mine went out to watch the pros play at the VA Open. He didn't want to play in the AM event, but wanted to watch the pros. I'd watch if more big names came nearer to me. I can't be bothered to drive more than an hour just to watch anything these days. The VA Invitational is the only course that I've seen with a larger number of big players. I might end up watching them next year (now that I know about it). Michael Jo came out to the VA Open, and if more guys come into that, it'd definitely be worth watching. Brian & Michael Jo played in Loreilla, but i'll be selfish and say that it'd be nice to at least have a full lead card of 4 recognizable names to watch :)
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Re: Why Join the PDGA?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Aug 09, 2009 7:32 pm

If an advertiser is willing to spend say $10 per 100 viewers, how many spectators are needed to justify a sponsor putting in $1000?

And Chuck, you said "We do things for the sport in general, for the members overall, and not just the pros despite the fact it's the PDGA." Boy, you know that's a bad comment. If the AMs pulled out of PDGA membership, it would be a huge hole in revenue, wouldn't it? The expectation is that the PDGA will do something for all of disc golf, not just for the Pros.

Not sure how you read that as me saying the PDGA has been pro focused? I'm saying it has NOT been focused on pros (despite its name) but all competitive players - ams, pros, juniors - as members and with additional services provided to the whole disc golf community like rules, course guidelines, course directory, tech standards, EDGE support, etc.
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