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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:12 am

Worlds DVDs starting around 2004 finally started making money after taking about 2-3 years for payback. So the PDGA has not lost on those video projects that cost around $30,000 each year to produce. The one or two slightly lower bidders over the years for doing the Worlds DVD have apparently not demonstrated the expertise and capability to do the appropriate work or they would have been selected for the job. I was only involved with helping select the PW2007 DVD bidder as TD so I don't know about other years.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby veganray » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:20 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:Worlds DVDs starting around 2004 finally started making money after taking about 2-3 years for payback. So the PDGA has not lost on those video projects that cost around $30,000 each year to produce. The one or two slightly lower bidders over the years for doing the Worlds DVD have apparently not demonstrated the expertise and capability to do the appropriate work or they would have been selected for the job. I was only involved with helping select the PW2007 DVD bidder as TD so I don't know about other years.

Not slightly lower, Chuck, dramatically lower. And, you're right, the other DVDs that this company produces don't "demonstrate the expertise and capability to do the appropriate work". They're only the benchmark by which other disc golf DVDs are judged. :roll:
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby SkaBob » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:26 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:If it fails, it just indicates the lack of interest in viewing disc golf events for even a below market price from the potentially core viewing audience


So, wait, if I do something horribly badly at every step of the way, and nobody pays me a profitable amount for it, that speaks about the lack of consumer interest, rather than the lack of proper handling of the project?

Sorry, no, that's Business/Econ/Marketing 101 level common sense stuff. If you do it the wrong way, you can't assume it's the market's fault that you didn't make money off of it.

Take for example a video game. E.T. the Extra Terrestrial for the Atari 2600. It's widely (almost unanimously) regarded as the worst video game of all time. It's sales were so poor the surplus millions of cartridges are buried underneath an airport runway because they couldn't think of any other place to dispose of them. It's negative reception was so strong it almost killed the entire video games industry.

Does that mean that there was a lack of consumer interest in video games?

Video games are one of the most profitable industries in the world. You just have to make a good one to make any money off of it.

There comes a point at which the PDGA should ask it's members if any of them would be willing to volunteer expertise in these affairs rather than stumbling about as a bunch of people who haven't the foggiest idea what they're doing and hoping they make something good. If that call would've gone out to the membership, I would've been more than willing to volunteer my expertise with regards to the technical aspect of the production - and I happen to have at my disposal several friends with a wealth of professional video production experience that would be more than willing to help out as well...The PDGA's membership could've helped them not waste all the money they're throwing away on these half-cocked video events and DVD productions.

edit:

Now that I think about it, where are you getting your figures for what "market price" is for viewing a sporting event streaming online?

You can watch NHL games live on their website for a nominal fee ($23.95/month to view any/all the games you want live, plus archived games and footage).

How is $10 for a single live event below that?

You can watch unlimited numbers of movies and TV shows online at sites like HULU, Netflix, and soon Youtube for less than $20/month.

How is $10 for a single video event below that?

Disc Golf DVDs far better than the ones you guys paid so much for (and veganray is right, btw.) sell for $15-20 online and you get to watch them over and over and over 'til your heart's content. Are you guys planning on selling the DVD for $20 on top of the $10 that people will have paid to watch online?

If you sell it for more than $5 to people who paid to watch online, you're still not "below" market value.

Occam's Razor says it's far more likely the PDGA adminsitration is too out of touch to pull off a streaming video event or DVD release properly than it is that the market doesn't exist to view or purchase them.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:56 am

I believe PPV can run $10 on cable or satellite and that's just one viewing of a 2-hour movie that was usually already profitable.

The people involved in these live productions are top notch and have done it for other sports. They are trying to help the PDGA see if live coverage is viable by lowballing their services as a test. This is like the early days of television. If you wanted to see what was going on, you had to spend a bunch of money for a TV in 1950 dollars.

Anyone spending $10 for live coverage at the Memorial (or $20 after Feb 5th) is hoping the investment is worthwhile in the long run for continuing and increasingly better coverage. If not enough players are willing to invest then prospects for live coverage to develop and improve will just be delayed if it ever will be viable. No ESPN is going to come in and do it for a $10 subscription without a 10,000 person guarantee. I think you can get a 30-minute show for around $100,000 paid to ESPN (that doesn't include costs for shooting and editing the show) which is how they've done it for bass championships from what I understand with advertisers footing the bill.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby ChUcK » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:03 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote: So, this Memorial effort continues to be a "money where your mouth is" media test. If it fails, it just indicates the lack of interest in viewing disc golf events for even a below market price from the potentially core viewing audience.


Charge people ten to twenty per head to view the next Knicks-Lakers game on crappy live internet feed, see how many takers you get. I'll bet you don't even need to remove your shoes to sum up the grand total.

It sounds to me like there wasn't enough effort/success selling time to advertisers.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby black udder » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:10 am

I've got a couple of the Worlds DVDs, the Clash DVDs and a couple USDGC DVDs. I like them all. the Clash & USDGC mostly.

The work done on the Tali Open and European Open is every bit as good and done by (I believe) fans (albeit talented ones). The only think lacking is the commentary. They had much better shots due to multiple cameras, slow motion shots. It was truly great stuff.

I'd much rather the PDGA threw a handful of money at those guys to fly 'em over here and film a nice big tournament than continue with what we have done.

I agree with Bob in that just because nobody wants to pay for live coverage during 3 weekdays doesn't mean that there isn't an interest. I do believe that the interest is going to be small though. Not everybody who plays DG is interested in watching it and not that many people play to start with, so the audience is going to be much smaller.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby Timko » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:11 am

I think disc golfers are the main market demographic to sell disc golf stuff to right now. I'm not sure how many people outside of the sport would pay for event coverage. As for sponsors, who should the PDGA target? I've long been skeptical of how much cash disc golf companies donate to events. After the World Championships last year, I'm pretty sure that event sponsorship from the major companies comes in the form of goods, not liquid assets, which is what we're seeing with the internet coverage.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby ChUcK » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:14 am

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Keen Footwear.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Target.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Home Depot.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Insert Random Cash Cow Here.

Get to work, marketing director.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:23 am

I'm not saying the effort will be successful or if it's even worth it for $10. That's for the market to decide. Just explaining what it's about which is a pioneering effort to see if even the core disc playing audience will pay to watch. Disc golfers haven't shown that they want to be spectators even for free over the years so I would be skeptical that this idea has much chance. But I do give them credit for doing what they can on a shoestring budget to provide live coverage to see where the viewing potential currently is for the sport. If it's not there then pros should not expect to see much if any increase in sponsorship for events and in fact see it drying up as sponsors become disillusioned with the lack of audience for disc golf. Better to find out now rather than continuing to throw good money after bad so it can be directed in ways that expand and improve the sport for everyone such as more school development.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby Timko » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:30 am

ChUcK wrote:Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Keen Footwear.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Target.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Home Depot.

Live Coverage of the 2010 Memorial, brought to you by Insert Random Cash Cow Here.

Get to work, marketing director.


Let's leave Keen out of the discussion right now, since they've donated product to be given away.

Why should Target or Home Depot sponsor this?
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby SkaBob » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:35 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I believe PPV can run $10 on cable or satellite and that's just one viewing of a 2-hour movie that was usually already profitable.


Cable service sure sucks where you live, Chuck. It's $2.95-4.95 to rent a movie through Comcast here, and they also have many, many movies and shows available for free. Cable PPV has to remain competitive with the video stores and netflix, remember...

Chuck Kennedy wrote:No ESPN is going to come in and do it for a $10 subscription without a 10,000 person guarantee.


You're not charging a subscription, Chuck. You're charging a one-time fee.

Regardless, you're talking about the internet. There are people doing things for fun on the internet in the realm of video production that would blow your socks off.

The PDGA is fooling itself if it thinks it (or the sport of disc golf) is big enough to attract ESPN yet. The PDGA doesn't even have 50,000 members (active or otherwise) worldwide yet. ESPN doesn't usually pick something up seriously until the demographic it will reach is 6 figures or more in terms of people that would be interested.

If you bring up the big hollywood people and act like you're relevant enough to have a need for their services, they're going to charge you for wasting their time, because they can see how small the market is for disc golf - no less disc golf in the mass media.

Disc golf's shoes are not that big yet, and the PDGA needs to quit pretending they are.

If you were to call the European guys over and have them do it, you'd spend a small fraction of what you're already budgeting to get the same quality (or better, since they understand the audience and will have a better idea of where to put cameras and what the viewers will want to see), and you won't look like small timers in the eyes of the people doing the work.

You won't likely be able to do it live, but I've already explained why live coverage is a horrible idea, even without taking into account that this is a 3 day event during the week, when most people willing to spend $10 to watch disc golf will likely be working, or golfing themselves.

Having ESPN level guys do the work on this is wasteful of our membership fees, and will do nothing but make the PDGA and disc golfers look like embarrassments in terms of return on investment and target audience size.
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby emiller3 » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:37 am

black udder wrote:The work done on the Tali Open and European Open is every bit as good and done by (I believe) fans (albeit talented ones). The only think lacking is the commentary. They had much better shots due to multiple cameras, slow motion shots. It was truly great stuff.

I'd much rather the PDGA threw a handful of money at those guys to fly 'em over here and film a nice big tournament than continue with what we have done.

I agree, JR and his crew have done an excellent job, why can't we get more of that out of the PDGA? I don't really care if it's live, I don't even need commentary, just film it and put it up on YouTube and see how much interest in generates. Or like bu said, hire JR, fly them over, and produce DVDs of the whole thing...if JR is providing that stuff via YouTube, how can the PDGA not find a way to produce DVDs without losing money?
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby SkaBob » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:41 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I do give them credit for doing what they can on a shoestring budget to provide live coverage to see where the viewing potential currently is for the sport. If it's not there then pros should not expect to see much if any increase in sponsorship for events and in fact see it drying up as sponsors become disillusioned with the lack of audience for disc golf.


This just makes me want to echo my first point a couple posts ago. You're doing it wrong, and you're going to hold it against the pros that you're doing it wrong?

You made the bed that they get to lie in?

We have no problem getting sponsorships here in Michigan for disc golf events. They're not $10,000 added cash sponsorships, but there are several companies (including Monster energy drinks) that have really been excited and accommodating and generous to the tournaments we've had them at.

If the PDGA can't get any bigger named sponsors than the 200 person club that runs tournaments in Detroit that has no marketing staff, your marketing staff doesn't deserve to keep being paid. I'd be fired if I was so ineffectual at any job I've ever worked, and as my money is going to supporting them, I am personally offended with the prospect that we're expected to believe that this is the best that they can do.

Chuck Kennedy wrote: Better to find out now rather than continuing to throw good money after bad so it can be directed in ways that expand and improve the sport for everyone such as more school development.


How is throwing tens of thousands of dollars away on something that is so obviously a bad idea, badly planned, either "good money" being thrown at something, or going to "expand and improve the sport"?
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby Frank Delicious » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:41 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:I'm not saying the effort will be successful or if it's even worth it for $10. That's for the market to decide. Just explaining what it's about which is a pioneering effort to see if even the core disc playing audience will pay to watch.


If you offer a bad product not even hard core DGers will buy it and it seems like a lot of people are worried the product is going to be bad. I'm going to decide after these two questions asked earlier can be answered

1. How many holes will be live?
2. Do I get to see lead card action for all 18 holes?
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Re: Why do we have to pay to watch the Memorial coverage?

Postby SkaBob » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:48 am

I've put up a poll regarding this topic. Everyone feel free to vote on it. Let's see how many people on here really are interested in live disc golf coverage, paid or otherwise.
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