To cheat or not to cheat...

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To cheat or not to cheat...

Postby Teemosaabi » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:03 pm

I played a course this weekend that had women's tee pads just like on a regular golf course... I played the first round using the mens and got a 14 over... then played the second round using the womens and my score improved to a 9 over.... (my first time hitting single digits...) but I've got mixed feelings... it kinda feels like cheating... I don't consistantly drive as far as the guys I play with, so this definitely put us on a more even playing field. Do you think that since DG isn't all about muscle as much as it is technique, that using women's tees would be a bit of an unfair advantage? I live to beat a couple of these guys I play with (just friendly competition, but competition none the less) and I don't want to have a questionable victory...
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Postby Rooster » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:08 pm

when i play with friend that can drive father than i i play the same tees they do. i feel as if when i beat them its a better victory. but thats just me.
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Postby Teemosaabi » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:18 pm

That's how I feel too... my only reason for questioning it is, I don't know any girls that play, so since I'm always throwing with guys, my drives are usually quite a bit shorter... if I were playing women, I would definitely tee off from the same point. The whole women's tee dynamic never even entered my mind until I ended up at a course that actually had them... had I not played there this last weekend, I would (and probably will anyway) continue to tee off right there with the guys, and just use them as my motivation to drive the distance...
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Postby garublador » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:24 pm

Most places that I've been to that have multiple teepads refer to the eaiser set of teepads as "recreational," "amateur," or "short" teepads. They're almost never called "women's" teepads. Multiple teepads are there for more variety, not to compensate for gender differences.

If you're playing a recreational round then play from whatever teepads you want. If you want an easier course, play from the shorter ones. If you want more of a challenge, play from the long ones. Perhaps it's the engineer in me, but if you're playing for bragging rights, you have to either play the same course, or include that you threw from different teepads when bragging.

If you're playing for money, then the people putting up the cash will determine what is fair. If you're in a tournament, the teepads you throw from will be mandated.

If it matters, the way "par" is determined by the PDGA is a statistical determination of how difficult the course is on any given day based on how players with known skill levels perform. These statistics are used to generate ratings assigned to each player based on how well they throw. The ratings are not adjusted for age or gender. That means that, according to the PDGA, the easier set of teepads on any given course will have a lower par than the more difficult set of teepads no matter what your gender or skill level is.
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Postby Weebl » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:30 pm

You could use the shorter Tee pads to give yourself a handicap to make you have scores closer to theirs. If the course provides it, then I would use it. It's not cheating if the course says it's for women/Rec/AmII
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Postby Teemosaabi » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:30 pm

Good to know... as far as the par difference is concerned, when throwing from different tee pads. Only having played for the past 3 months, there are a ton of things I don't know... so I appreciate the insight...
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Postby garublador » Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:48 pm

I didn't explicitly state it, but you apparently did a good job of figuring out my point. Just to be as clear as I can for clearity sake, I don't believe there has been any statistical analysis done to figure out the average ratings difference between men and women. To be honest, I'm not sure if the women's sample is really large enough or not. So, the "women's" tees probably aren't placed where they are to specifially equalize men and women's scores. I suppose there could be exceptions, but as far as I know, that's not the norm.

I'm not sure there's any sort of standard, or if the standard is commonly used, as to how much easier the am tees should be. If anyone knows to the contrary, I'd be interested to hear about it.
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Postby superq » Mon Dec 18, 2006 2:11 pm

The idea of womens tees is a fairly outdated one. Most golf courses now offer color coded tees. Typically
Black/blue- longest tees
White - standard tees ( formerly refered to as Mens tees
Red tees (formerly womens tees)
Gold Tees ( formerly senior tees)
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:49 pm

i play with quite a few women who'll punch guys that call the short/rec tees women's tees :P

as for your questions... there's two-point-five answers. the physical characteristics between men and women lead to differences in distance potential between the genders. men should be able to throw farther than you if you both have the same level of skill.

answer 1: if you choose to accept this, you can use the difference in short vs. long tees to compensate for the differences in distance potential.

answer 2: with good technique, you could most likely reach the 325'-350' range. most men don't advance much beyond (if at all) and so you can definitely hit a point where you are throwing equal or farther than most of them. that being said, longer holes = more throws = more practice = get better faster. if you choose to compete with them from the long tees your game will improve faster even if you cannot beat them right now.

answer 2.5: if being able to compete fuels your fire and gets you to focus more on technique and how you play as well as increases the goals you wish to attain, play the short tees until your technique can get you D that rivals theirs.

p.s. if your putting and approaching is better than theirs, it will make up for at least 50' of tee distance.
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Postby sleepy » Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:56 pm

I always try to play from whichever set of teepads I'd have to play from if a tournament were held at that course. Since I play AM3, that's almost always the short pads :wink: :P

You should play the course according to your ability level. Why play a casual round from teepads that you won't be playing from in a competitive round?

Note: Random-draw doubles are a different story. As far as I've seen they're almost always played from the long tees.


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Postby black udder » Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:30 pm

Are you sure they're "women's" and not just the short tees? Of the few courses I've played, there has always been two sets of tees, but it's not mens/womens, it's longs/shorts.

I'm with Blake on the distance thing though. I've played with quite a few folks in my area and I've seen more people on this forum throwing 400' than I have in person.

In my area, there are only a handful of holes that are over 400', so if you can throw 300' (which I believe is definitely do-able if you practice) then you can complete with any of the men. Just practice on your up-shots and putts.

A friend of mine doesn't throw over 300' and has a great up-shot and great putt. He competes with some of the best in the game (until the holes start going over 400').

I believe that 300'+ is all form. I watched a really small guy (under 5'11), about 160lbs throw 350 *easily*. He wasn't muscular at all, just had pretty good form.

With that information, I believe that a woman with good form should be able to do at least 300' and that's very competitive.

Given Blake's encyclopedia of knowledge here, the forum and all the good folks who can contribute, I figure a year or two of play/practice and you should have the distance. Accuracy? That's a whole other issue! LOL
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:00 pm

i've gotten about 12 women into disc golf. 3 of them broke 300' their first day. 3 of them hit 275-300' their first day.

only one didn't break 225'.

i play rounds with a few local pro women. one throws 275-300', the other has a consistent ~350' and can hang w/ most people distancewise.
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Postby plastic_fondler » Tue Dec 19, 2006 7:24 pm

Highland Springs in Lakeport, CA.....designed by Steady Ed. This course is great for the whole family in that each hole has at least 5 tees. Novice, Professional, Alternate, YAA (yet another alternate), and Impossible. This makes its wonderful for mix talent groups.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:26 am

hahah, dang Blake, I wish you'd been the one to introduce ME to disc golf!

There's one girl that I play with fairly regularly, and she doesn't drive all that far...I'd say around 250', maybe 300' max. But, she plays her shots well, especially her 2nd throws. Even though she throws shorter than most, she's better than a lot of the guys we play with. I was once teamed up with her in random doubles, and besides a father/son duo that ended up together (each of whom have been playing over 12 years), we beat everyone handily.

And also, with good technique, I imagine that you can start outdriving a lot of the guys. One kid I play with sometimes is like 15 years old, 5'6" or so, and all of 90 lbs. He can get his drives out to 370' or so, sidearmed. (little bastard :D) So like they say, "size isn't everything." ;)
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Postby Frontman311 » Thu Dec 21, 2006 1:52 pm

Dunno if someone mentioned this, but if you practice your ups and putts then you'll beat 'em everytime. Gotta go out and play now!
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