Peter pleads, Ziggy launches & JR lectures on the Brits

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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JHBlader86 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:21 pm

JR wrote:
JHBlader86 wrote:As much as I'd like to see an ADGA, I think we first need to work our way from the ground up and form an Amateur Committee within the PDGA that focuses on Ams needs by helping to create either regional Amateur Tours, or helping to promote Amateur only events, and attracting sponsors for Am only events. It would be pretty sweet though to see different regions with an amateur tour to help promote the sport alongside the pros National Tour.


If a split is some day deemed to be necessary a committee may be a good step if it is made up of the people that will form/run the ADGA initially so that they get experience. I'm not sure if the PDGA wants them to gain contacts to prospective sponsors though.


The split shouldnt be one where the ADGA and the PDGA are trying to compete against one another. The two organizations should simply be about working to promote the sport for their respective targets. The best solution, although still not possible at the moment, would be if the PDGA were able to create branches throughout the country instead of just one centralized location. If we had a PDGA North, South, East, West then we wouldnt have near as many issues as we do now.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby keltik » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:22 pm

the more I think about things the more I see it like this: with ball golf there is the PGA (which handles ALL professional stuff), the USGA which is an optional organization open for anyone and then there are the local [Country]Clubs which handle the lion's share of amateur competition and play. I think it would be best if the PDGA dropped all amateurs and left the rest to local clubs and homegrown organizations. NC is famous for its HGT and we have several clubs in each major region to accommodate amateur competition. I'm sure it's the same in most other states. If it's not then maybe the guys on that particular local scene should band together so to speak.

If the AM side is gonna lose too much money from a split with the PDGA then maybe we should look to the AAU. IMHO getting disc golf recognized by the AAU would be a tremendous step in the right direction. Maybe the PDGA should sell the AM segment to the AAU. or make a contract or something.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JR » Sat Aug 28, 2010 11:13 pm

JHBlader86 wrote:
JR wrote:
JHBlader86 wrote:As much as I'd like to see an ADGA, I think we first need to work our way from the ground up and form an Amateur Committee within the PDGA that focuses on Ams needs by helping to create either regional Amateur Tours, or helping to promote Amateur only events, and attracting sponsors for Am only events. It would be pretty sweet though to see different regions with an amateur tour to help promote the sport alongside the pros National Tour.


If a split is some day deemed to be necessary a committee may be a good step if it is made up of the people that will form/run the ADGA initially so that they get experience. I'm not sure if the PDGA wants them to gain contacts to prospective sponsors though.


The split shouldnt be one where the ADGA and the PDGA are trying to compete against one another. The two organizations should simply be about working to promote the sport for their respective targets. The best solution, although still not possible at the moment, would be if the PDGA were able to create branches throughout the country instead of just one centralized location. If we had a PDGA North, South, East, West then we wouldnt have near as many issues as we do now.


I'm just afraid that from a sponsor point of view we're gonna seem like two smaller groups that are separate and thus less interesting source of revenue. And I'm not so sure that the ADGA/PDGA operation would run so smoothly thanks to partially different and potentially conflicting needs. What would the reason of creating ADGA be if there wasn't a problem currently because the PDGA is spread too thin? My opinion. There remains a lot to do and the staff ain't large enough IMO to exploit every opportunity. I just think that a split would divert too much power and staff to different activities at a time when there's too much on the plate already. Could the PDGA do better with the current resources? Yes just like any organization. But IMO the PDGA should be closer to some other organizations but are there other more skilled people to be staffing the PDGA available? I have no clue about that.

Should the PDGA be doing something else or changing priorities? Quite possibly but I'm not an expert on that except sponsors outside of the sport would help. Media visibility has really really worked for Finland. Our growth rate in players is probably the highest among countries with established player base if not the highest overall growth rate has been increasing each year and now there are estimates of over 30000 players vs 15000 last year. Major newspapers have written a lot of articles so basically most if not each Finn has had an opportunity to read about the sport. Radio interviews and TV coverage? Check. Done. Maybe the Finnish Frisbee Association should be consulted. Maybe the president Sami Poimala has interesting things to say. They've made progress and had success why not learn from them?
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JHBlader86 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:33 am

JR wrote:
JHBlader86 wrote:
JR wrote:
JHBlader86 wrote:As much as I'd like to see an ADGA, I think we first need to work our way from the ground up and form an Amateur Committee within the PDGA that focuses on Ams needs by helping to create either regional Amateur Tours, or helping to promote Amateur only events, and attracting sponsors for Am only events. It would be pretty sweet though to see different regions with an amateur tour to help promote the sport alongside the pros National Tour.


If a split is some day deemed to be necessary a committee may be a good step if it is made up of the people that will form/run the ADGA initially so that they get experience. I'm not sure if the PDGA wants them to gain contacts to prospective sponsors though.


The split shouldnt be one where the ADGA and the PDGA are trying to compete against one another. The two organizations should simply be about working to promote the sport for their respective targets. The best solution, although still not possible at the moment, would be if the PDGA were able to create branches throughout the country instead of just one centralized location. If we had a PDGA North, South, East, West then we wouldnt have near as many issues as we do now.


I'm just afraid that from a sponsor point of view we're gonna seem like two smaller groups that are separate and thus less interesting source of revenue. And I'm not so sure that the ADGA/PDGA operation would run so smoothly thanks to partially different and potentially conflicting needs. What would the reason of creating ADGA be if there wasn't a problem currently because the PDGA is spread too thin? My opinion. There remains a lot to do and the staff ain't large enough IMO to exploit every opportunity. I just think that a split would divert too much power and staff to different activities at a time when there's too much on the plate already. Could the PDGA do better with the current resources? Yes just like any organization. But IMO the PDGA should be closer to some other organizations but are there other more skilled people to be staffing the PDGA available? I have no clue about that.

Should the PDGA be doing something else or changing priorities? Quite possibly but I'm not an expert on that except sponsors outside of the sport would help. Media visibility has really really worked for Finland. Our growth rate in players is probably the highest among countries with established player base if not the highest overall growth rate has been increasing each year and now there are estimates of over 30000 players vs 15000 last year. Major newspapers have written a lot of articles so basically most if not each Finn has had an opportunity to read about the sport. Radio interviews and TV coverage? Check. Done. Maybe the Finnish Frisbee Association should be consulted. Maybe the president Sami Poimala has interesting things to say. They've made progress and had success why not learn from them?


That's why we dont need a split yet, but we need a permanent committee within the PDGA to oversee amateur growth specifically through more cooperation with local clubs. I know what clubs dont like to see is the PDGA's name put on their tournaments when the PDGA staff themselves have nothing to do with the tournament other than sanctioning it. What the committee and eventual ADGA would do is to actually show real support for these local clubs through marketing and sponsorship help. The committee/ADGA would be on their phones and computers contacting businesses in the area trying to attract sponsors instead of having the local club do all the work. It takes part of the burden off the club, and it would be a true ADGA event because the ADGA personally helped grow and oversee the tournament.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby veganray » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:29 am

Every opinion here seems to favor a more sprawling, decentralized org (or orgs) to run our sport, and I couldn't disagree more. Whatever issues you have with the man (and there are many to be had), the PDGA never functioned more efficiently & sanely than when it was run by two people out of Brian Hoeniger's basement. What the org needs is not more committees, subcommittees, paid consultants, or, FSM forbid, a second org with the bloated bureaucracy (including the inevitable resource-leeching consultants & executives) that comes with it, but a leader with the sack to choose a focused course & a scaling back toward a monarchical system to allow him to implement it without having to kowtow to every special-interest group that wants a bigger piece of the extremely tiny pie. The culture of trying to please everybody all of the time, as well as allowing representatives of these 'disenfranchised' groups to dictate the course of what should be a professional organization, need to go.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JR » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:23 am

JHBlader86 wrote:
JR wrote:
JHBlader86 wrote:
JR wrote:
JHBlader86 wrote:As much as I'd like to see an ADGA, I think we first need to work our way from the ground up and form an Amateur Committee within the PDGA that focuses on Ams needs by helping to create either regional Amateur Tours, or helping to promote Amateur only events, and attracting sponsors for Am only events. It would be pretty sweet though to see different regions with an amateur tour to help promote the sport alongside the pros National Tour.


If a split is some day deemed to be necessary a committee may be a good step if it is made up of the people that will form/run the ADGA initially so that they get experience. I'm not sure if the PDGA wants them to gain contacts to prospective sponsors though.


The split shouldnt be one where the ADGA and the PDGA are trying to compete against one another. The two organizations should simply be about working to promote the sport for their respective targets. The best solution, although still not possible at the moment, would be if the PDGA were able to create branches throughout the country instead of just one centralized location. If we had a PDGA North, South, East, West then we wouldnt have near as many issues as we do now.


I'm just afraid that from a sponsor point of view we're gonna seem like two smaller groups that are separate and thus less interesting source of revenue. And I'm not so sure that the ADGA/PDGA operation would run so smoothly thanks to partially different and potentially conflicting needs. What would the reason of creating ADGA be if there wasn't a problem currently because the PDGA is spread too thin? My opinion. There remains a lot to do and the staff ain't large enough IMO to exploit every opportunity. I just think that a split would divert too much power and staff to different activities at a time when there's too much on the plate already. Could the PDGA do better with the current resources? Yes just like any organization. But IMO the PDGA should be closer to some other organizations but are there other more skilled people to be staffing the PDGA available? I have no clue about that.

Should the PDGA be doing something else or changing priorities? Quite possibly but I'm not an expert on that except sponsors outside of the sport would help. Media visibility has really really worked for Finland. Our growth rate in players is probably the highest among countries with established player base if not the highest overall growth rate has been increasing each year and now there are estimates of over 30000 players vs 15000 last year. Major newspapers have written a lot of articles so basically most if not each Finn has had an opportunity to read about the sport. Radio interviews and TV coverage? Check. Done. Maybe the Finnish Frisbee Association should be consulted. Maybe the president Sami Poimala has interesting things to say. They've made progress and had success why not learn from them?


That's why we dont need a split yet, but we need a permanent committee within the PDGA to oversee amateur growth specifically through more cooperation with local clubs. I know what clubs dont like to see is the PDGA's name put on their tournaments when the PDGA staff themselves have nothing to do with the tournament other than sanctioning it. What the committee and eventual ADGA would do is to actually show real support for these local clubs through marketing and sponsorship help. The committee/ADGA would be on their phones and computers contacting businesses in the area trying to attract sponsors instead of having the local club do all the work. It takes part of the burden off the club, and it would be a true ADGA event because the ADGA personally helped grow and oversee the tournament.


I tend to agree that a split may one day be necessary but lets wait until we can make this sport viable as a profession for the best you name the amount of players. That would mean that the name Professional in the DGA would be merited and if it means TV exposure in the US and better yet in many places around the world the better. I think that when the pro tour gains enough income to support themselves and they still act as ambassadors to the sport benefiting every player that would be a good time to look hard if a split is necessary. Unless somebody can provide good reasons as to why everyone would benefit from an earlier split.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby John Rock » Sun Aug 29, 2010 2:45 pm

Modeling the org after the Finnish example may not work in the US. When I played in the US Open in 1992, I got partnered with a guy from Norway for DDC and Freestyle. He was really cool to hang around with, and even though we had a language barrier (he knew a little English, I know zero Norwegian), I learned some of how they operate there across the pond. He said the government helps with Frisbee sports, even providing an indoor place to play in the winter. Their clubs seemed to set up differently than they are in the US, much more fromal. Things may be different now, I don't know. That was almost 20 years ago, but those guys from Norway and that part of the world sure did have some mad Frisbee skills.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JHern » Sun Aug 29, 2010 5:31 pm

90% is diverted to Open Pros? Is that true? If so, this is a serious blow to the PDGA's image!

Damn, and I was just about to finally join the PDGA! Guess I'll shelve that idea until they come clean about all of this (and censoring Peter Shive is NOT a good way of dealing with it). I'm not going to be an Open Pro (and I'm already 37)...no use in diverting my money to an organization that won't be supporting programs that I'm interested in seeing funded, and that ignores the vast majority of those who pay for it all to begin with.

I personally think 90% of PDGA funds should be spent on new course development and growth of the sport at the grass roots. Seriously, let's continue to grow the sport, then the fame and fortune for open pros will follow later, when it is ready. This fruit isn't ripe, so don't pick it! These guys are way too impatient! The sport is not yet at the level where they can make as much money as they'd like. Instead, by sucking the blood out of other important efforts to feed their lust for fame and fortune, these guys will slow progress and might end up destroying the very organization they depend upon to better shepherd the sport into the future.

Don't get me wrong, I love to compete in tournaments now. But, for now there are a lot of fun tournaments I can play where I don't need a PDGA membership. And if these policies continue to head in the direction Peter thinks they are headed, then I can foresee a lot more tournaments in the future that go away from the PDGA. They don't own the sport, so they can't tell us not to do that. We still hold all the power in our hands.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JHern » Sun Aug 29, 2010 6:13 pm

In other words, what Peter describes is that the PDGA is becoming a Ponzi scheme. Those at the top extract funds from those coming in at the bottom, and this is unsustainable as well as disrespectful to the organization and the sport.

This is just like how corporate boards across the US have leached away all value from their institutions for their own personal gains, and left in ruins the once important roles they used to play in our society. This is the same corrosive US organizational culture that has destroyed almost every sector of our country, from education, to gov't, to finance and banking, to manufacturing, etc., etc..
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby Jesse B 707 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:05 pm

veganray wrote:Every opinion here seems to favor a more sprawling, decentralized org (or orgs) to run our sport, and I couldn't disagree more. Whatever issues you have with the man (and there are many to be had), the PDGA never functioned more efficiently & sanely than when it was run by two people out of Brian Hoeniger's basement. What the org needs is not more committees, subcommittees, paid consultants, or, FSM forbid, a second org with the bloated bureaucracy (including the inevitable resource-leeching consultants & executives) that comes with it, but a leader with the sack to choose a focused course & a scaling back toward a monarchical system to allow him to implement it without having to kowtow to every special-interest group that wants a bigger piece of the extremely tiny pie. The culture of trying to please everybody all of the time, as well as allowing representatives of these 'disenfranchised' groups to dictate the course of what should be a professional organization, need to go.

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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby Frank Delicious » Sun Aug 29, 2010 7:07 pm

veganray wrote:Every opinion here seems to favor a more sprawling, decentralized org (or orgs) to run our sport, and I couldn't disagree more. Whatever issues you have with the man (and there are many to be had), the PDGA never functioned more efficiently & sanely than when it was run by two people out of Brian Hoeniger's basement. What the org needs is not more committees, subcommittees, paid consultants, or, FSM forbid, a second org with the bloated bureaucracy (including the inevitable resource-leeching consultants & executives) that comes with it, but a leader with the sack to choose a focused course & a scaling back toward a monarchical system to allow him to implement it without having to kowtow to every special-interest group that wants a bigger piece of the extremely tiny pie. The culture of trying to please everybody all of the time, as well as allowing representatives of these 'disenfranchised' groups to dictate the course of what should be a professional organization, need to go.


While modeling the PDGA after larger sports that have a very top down leadership organization I don't know how much I want the PDGA to be run by a Bud Selig someday. Plus those types of orgs turn into a good ol' boys club really easily which I am pretty against.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JHern » Mon Aug 30, 2010 12:13 am

Frank Delicious wrote:
veganray wrote:Every opinion here seems to favor a more sprawling, decentralized org (or orgs) to run our sport, and I couldn't disagree more....

While modeling the PDGA after larger sports that have a very top down leadership organization I don't know how much I want the PDGA to be run by a Bud Selig someday. Plus those types of orgs turn into a good ol' boys club really easily which I am pretty against.


It won't work with disc golf, because the PDGA doesn't own the sport, the courses, or the rights/trademarks/etc to any of the sport. They just don't have any muscle. Instead, they rely completely on the willingness of its members to send in $50 or $75 of their hard-earned money every year. If people stop sending them money, then the whole thing collapses. And they will stop sending money if it becomes a ponzi scheme.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby JR » Mon Aug 30, 2010 5:57 am

John Rock wrote:Modeling the org after the Finnish example may not work in the US. When I played in the US Open in 1992, I got partnered with a guy from Norway for DDC and Freestyle. He was really cool to hang around with, and even though we had a language barrier (he knew a little English, I know zero Norwegian), I learned some of how they operate there across the pond. He said the government helps with Frisbee sports, even providing an indoor place to play in the winter. Their clubs seemed to set up differently than they are in the US, much more fromal. Things may be different now, I don't know. That was almost 20 years ago, but those guys from Norway and that part of the world sure did have some mad Frisbee skills.


It's cool that they have had government support. To my knowledge we in disc golf haven't had much if any government support. But I'm not on the inside with the organizations so I lack info. Communities have allowed courses to be built and in some cases the communal parks departments have cut the grass a few times in a summer. Some people here do practice indoors in the winter but it's usually throwing against tarps from 30-40' and thats it. If they fit in with the other athletes occupying most of the hall. Our sports halls are too short for driving anyway. There's one 300' hall that ain't the longest one that the FFA has used at least during some winters for practice but its pay for use and on top of that people had to pay for lodging as well. Not many free lunches or any from the government here. Unless you think of the publicly (taxes) funded TV station that took DG program bits in as a public service health and sports culture views in mind. And of course as a service to all DG players and potential new players. That is probably the only real contribution of the Finnish state to the advancement of DG. There are no state newspapers that the public reads each of the articles appeared in commercial newspapers.

The importance of media coverage might be very interesting and beneficial for every organizer and the PDGA to know about. I think Sami has a lot to say about that. Also Visa Ruuhinen has done a lot of work for over 20 years in promoting disc sports beside playing and having the second place in DG in Finnish championships and in freestyle at the worlds.
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Re: Peter's desire to be important

Postby NOHalffastpull » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:37 pm

Same song, different key.

Ask Peter Shive, let me serve you again, candidate for the pDGA BOD:

http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=35602

Even managed to slip a delicious reference.
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Re: Peter's pitch

Postby ziggy » Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:29 pm

Frank Delicious wrote:While modeling the PDGA after larger sports that have a very top down leadership organization I don't know how much I want the PDGA to be run by a Bud Selig someday. Plus those types of orgs turn into a good ol' boys club really easily which I am pretty against.


Gee Frank,

I just might run for PDGA BOD just to try and see if a deaf guy can defuse the good ol' boys concept.
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