Lost 4 QOLFs on one hole...

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Postby Bradley Walker » Wed Jan 24, 2007 12:54 pm

garublador wrote:I'm sure the oppertunity to lose a disc makes a hole a bit more exciting to some, but it really doesn't add anything qualitywise to a hole especally to those of us who don't get excited at the chance to lose money with no chance to gain any.


Wow...

<golf clap>

Of course, we should all "man up"...
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Postby black udder » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:29 pm

can't resist a comment... I think water can add some real beauty to a hole, also it adds the thrill factor of "will you cross it".

However, there is a limit. I've played a few courses where water comes into play and it's reachable. It's <250 of throwing distance and you may even have some elevation. So it's really all in your head if you don't make it.

What kills me are the courses that have well over 275' of water to cross and there isn't really any forgiveness. There's a beautiful hole at Walnut Creek - #18, that I just picked up my disc after #17 and went home. Frankly, the thrill of completing the course doesn't make up for the $10 I might lose on a disc.

In tournament play it's one thing, casual is something else.

Some of the tournaments have really long holes, but they're catering to the pros that can throw 350' over water. Me. I'm just feeding plastic to the fish. And they don't want it either.
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Postby cmlasley » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:34 pm

How do you feel about holes next to bodies of water, such as rivers? I have lost just as many to rivers, even when the hole is not across it.

I can only think of one hole I have ever played where smart play will still lose your disc. Indian Hills, hole 3. You are on the low side of a pond, throw across to the steep bank (close to 45 degrees) on the other side that is covered with trees. If you hit a tree on the other side, it rolls right down. Most of the other holes I have played, only newbs would put it in the drink.

That said, I think water holes are overrated and overused. I still enjoy them, but think they should always be in the first 250' of the hole.
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Postby garublador » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:43 pm

black udder wrote:can't resist a comment... I think water can add some real beauty to a hole, also it adds the thrill factor of "will you cross it".


I'll agree with you on the beauty part, however I don't think that makes the possibility of losing a disc during a round a requirement of a good course. Sometimes it's unavoidable, though. I'd rather have a good hole with a water hazzard be installed than a crappy hole without one.
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Postby black udder » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:45 pm

I think if you're playing with disc costing $7+, water shouldn't be a hazard, it should be a course accent. Once in awhile with a bad throw or unlucky toss you might lose one, but the majority of the time, you should be fine.

Of course, I would be speaking about AM and up players.

Rec players who can't throw beyond 100' should probably just skip water holes.

Not being mean, but if you're rec, then skipping a hole shouldn't matter and you can't always plan for water OB's smaller than 50' :)
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Postby the invisible tree » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:46 pm

I like water holes. Lake Olmstead, which is the one course in town with significant water, handles that aspect of course design pretty well I think. There aren't any holes where you have to play over the water but you can make the hole shorter/easier if you're willing to play it that way. Anything that requires more than 250' to clear the hazard should have a clearly defined alternate tee, IMO.
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Postby cmlasley » Wed Jan 24, 2007 1:50 pm

the invisible tree wrote: Anything that requires more than 250' to clear the hazard should have a clearly defined alternate tee, IMO.


Fantastic compromise. Such is the situation on the hole I mentioned.

I just take a crappy disc that is fairly benign as far as mistakes such as nose angle when I go to water hazard courses so if I lose it, I don't care much. My current choice of water discs is an ancient and beat Cyclone that I got at PIAS for $0.99. I can't go wrong.
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Postby some call me...tim? » Wed Jan 24, 2007 6:56 pm

Has anyone checked out the map of the course for The Memorial? Holy schnike that is a dangerous course. I would love to play it sometime, but I know if I were to play there for the tourney, the added pressure would result in me raising the water level by a couple inches. :D
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water

Postby twmccoy » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:04 pm

We have 2 courses here where water comes into play. Expo park in Aurora has water on holes 2, 3, 5, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14 and 18. They are all reachable holes, but the water is all to the side so crooked throws get wet.

Another course has one majestic 375' downhill carry over a big lake from the pro tee. Lots of people lose discs there. If I play these courses I carry a few disposable beater DX drivers.
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Re: water

Postby Thatdirtykid » Wed Jan 24, 2007 10:54 pm

twmccoy wrote:Another course has one majestic 375' downhill carry over a big lake from the pro tee. Lots of people lose discs there. If I play these courses I carry a few disposable beater DX drivers.


Still one of my fav holes ever, especially in the left position (the right is gambling w/ the trees wether you will make it through or not)

Still the risk there or any denver course is not quite like the memorial for disc loss
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Postby discmonkey42 » Thu Jan 25, 2007 12:39 pm

I really think the water thing is course designers trying to mimick ball golf too much. At .50 a golf ball, no big deal to hit it in water. Also, the wealthy country club folks need pretty landscaping to remind them how much better they have it than others. Water, I think, definitely has its place as an accent, but to force people to throw over it in large distances doesn't seem right. Ob is ob, I would just rather be able to get my disc back. That being said, for casual rounds you always have the choice to skip that hole. For tournaments, that's just one more benefit of Blake's rotating dx stock theory.
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Postby superq » Thu Jan 25, 2007 1:05 pm

As a TD you have to consider the level of play with the course layout. For example we have a hole (18 at lake shawnee) where from the tee to the edge of the water is about 50 then to cary the water at the shortest point is about 125 then from there to the pin would be about 200 with water to your right (and the ground slopes to the water pretty severly) Typically when we use that hole in tournament play there is a short tee on the safe side. The ams and women use the alt tee and the rest of the field uses it as a drop zone( pre rules change) The hole itself is around 330 tee to green so for the majority of advanced and open players getting there is not a big deal.

I think that water is a great thing to have on a course and it is to bad that there arent more waterways in public parks around here. When I started playing there was a hole in Emporia where you had to tee across a pond it was maybe 150 to the other side and at the time my average golf shot was 200-250 and I lost a disc probally 40% if the times I threw that hole. BUT now water is not in my mind unless I know I can not throw that far. It is the same with throwing uphill. these things are mental and they must be overcome, If that means tossing 30-40 discs in to the water one summer to be able to never have to worry about it again so be it.
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Postby black udder » Thu Jan 25, 2007 3:43 pm

while the ideal of tossing discs into the drink to learn is to be applauded, I'd wager that the majority of players a) don't want to do that and b) can't afford to do that.

I agree that it's probably more of an imitation of ball golf than it is DG.

I'd prefer a golf hole with a really low ceiling that requires skipping or something than water. It's unique to DG because you don't drive like that in ball golf.

We have a great hole at Gillies Creek (#9), that when played from the long position (bricks tee), throws through what sure looks like a small opening when throwing into it, then goes downhill and cuts to the left a little. It's a beautiful hole and I find much more challenging and creative than dropping water between the tee and pin.
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