"NAGS" Zone

Disc Golf Talk

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Frank Delicious » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:03 pm

Is putting really that easy for pros?
Frank Delicious
The Crime Prince of Clown
User avatar
 
Posts: 12364
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:43 pm
Location: Drowning in a cold river
Favorite Disc: Wraith

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Star Shark » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:55 am

Frank Delicious wrote:Is putting really that easy for pros?


Barring weird conditions they expect to make everything inside of 25-30'
-- Star Shark
Star Shark
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1472
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:27 am
Location: Studio City, CA
Favorite Disc: Ghost, Patriot, SL

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby turso » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:09 am

Complex matter, this. I don't see making exceptions to make things more difficult just for the pros feasible. Making them use size restricted discs seems just dumb to me, but I wouldn't mind adding a few puts per round more if they decided to make the baskets smaller, but they'd have to make the transition time to the smaller baskets at least 10 years since baskets don't come cheap and asking every course that wants to be a pdga certified for competition would be too taxing I think.

Adjusting the accepted basket size to smaller now, but still accepting the current baskets for a period of transition would probably work just fine. But again, is it the best choice or needed at all for that matter?
Frank Delicious wrote:Every groove is a unique snowflake of suck.


NOS, PD, River, Roc3, Comet, Trident, Mercy, JOKERi, XXX
turso
Steward Turkeylink: This ranks means I can't read or follow basic directions
User avatar
 
Posts: 1212
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:45 pm
Location: Finland, Kuopio
Favorite Disc: FR Roc3

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Triflusal » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:51 am

Star Shark wrote:
Frank Delicious wrote:Is putting really that easy for pros?


Barring weird conditions they expect to make everything inside of 25-30'

i think making them use a bigger disc just punishes them for being good at putting.
Triflusal
Effective absolute Communicator
User avatar
 
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:26 pm
Location: fighting crime
Favorite Disc: whamo malibu

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:47 am

How well someone can putt in DG or BG is simply based on key design elements like the ratio of projectile size to holing out receptacle size. Ball golfers would be better putters if the ball were smaller also.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Fritz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:59 am

zj1002 wrote:I wouldn't do PDGA events if I was forced to use a certain size disc on a certain shot


Agreed. I use a variety of discs when I putt from the QMS, Q-Sent, Omega and sometimes even a driver.
I think requiring the use of a large diameter putter would accomplish nothing other than more frustration of spit outs. You think you get spit outs now? Imagine the spit outs from a Zephyer or Condor. Look how many times now with the current putters available, you hit dead center chains and it hits the rim of the cage and out it goes.

Back to the topic, I love Houck designed/inspired courses. I'm so jealous of the Austin players that they get to play these magnificent courses all the time. Circle C and Manor are two of my favorite courses. I always look forward to going to Austin on business (and hope to get there for a tournament one of these days) so I can play the courses.

I think course design and true Par 5 and Par 4 holes, not just holes that are 1000' long pure distance holes, is what is going to help the sport grow. Houck is a visionary and saw this from the get go and his courses will be some of the toughest courses you will ever play.
Loved this article.
FRITZ
Team Millennium
Play Smart. Keep it Simple. Throw MILLENNIUM.
#26702 ♦ CE Omega ♦ Omega SS ♦ QMS ♦ Q Sentinel ♦ CE JLS ♦ Q Polaris ♦ Q Astra ♦ QOLS ♦ QOLF ♦ Q Quasar ♦ CE Exp-1
Fritz
Naturally Athletic
User avatar
 
Posts: 4675
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Fruita, CO
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Fritz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:03 am

Star Shark wrote:
Frank Delicious wrote:Is putting really that easy for pros?


Barring weird conditions they expect to make everything inside of 25-30'


Agreed, I get very pissed at myself if I miss a putt inside 35'
When I approach a basket, I've already made the putt in my head. Not because I think it's easy or that I'm cocky about it, it's because of all the hard work and practice I've put in on perfecting the putting skill.
FRITZ
Team Millennium
Play Smart. Keep it Simple. Throw MILLENNIUM.
#26702 ♦ CE Omega ♦ Omega SS ♦ QMS ♦ Q Sentinel ♦ CE JLS ♦ Q Polaris ♦ Q Astra ♦ QOLS ♦ QOLF ♦ Q Quasar ♦ CE Exp-1
Fritz
Naturally Athletic
User avatar
 
Posts: 4675
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Fruita, CO
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby zj1002 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:42 am

You need to get down here and play MetCenter and Guerrero(opens in Feb). Met is the best example I have ever played on of an open course that requires pinpoint placement. Roy G Guerrero park which opens next month is a Mike Olse course(so its in a way Houck inspired) that looks amazing from what I have seen. It looks like it will set a new standard for golf in austin. Definitely the most money/time the city has ever put into a course in these parts
Omega - QMS - MD2 - QJLS - OLF/S - DD - Scorpius
Tell me and I'll forget; Show me and I may remember; Involve me and I'll understand
zj1002
metroid cannon
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:52 pm
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Chuck Kennedy » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:53 am

Fritz -I think requiring the use of a large diameter putter would accomplish nothing other than more frustration of spit outs. You think you get spit outs now? Imagine the spit outs from a Zephyer or Condor. Look how many times now with the current putters available, you hit dead center chains and it hits the rim of the cage and out it goes.

No different than lip outs with golf balls. Apparently you haven't played Super Class DG. It's only a little tougher putting with Zephyrs inside 20'. It's not just opinion but based on scores in a hundred sanctioned Super Class rounds. We have a few players who switched to using them for their regular putters once they played in Super Class events.

Where switching to Zephyrs and larger for pros only would make more of a difference is on longer putts. That's where putting is "too easy" for the better pros. That would bring putting percentages more in line with ball golf which as a game has a better balance between putting versus other shots than DG. When there's more doubt about whether a player will make a putt, there's more potential interest for spectators. Where this relates to NAGS is the tougher you make putting, the less NAGS is a design concern. Even though ball golfers have been hitting longer on older par 4 designs, you don't hear about NAGS, just that the best pro golfers need to be better with their wedges because putting is still tough.
Last edited by Chuck Kennedy on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
Chuck Kennedy
1000 Rated Poster
 
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:42 pm
Location: Twin Cities

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Fritz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:00 am

zj1002 wrote:You need to get down here and play MetCenter and Guerrero(opens in Feb). Met is the best example I have ever played on of an open course that requires pinpoint placement. Roy G Guerrero park which opens next month is a Mike Olse course(so its in a way Houck inspired) that looks amazing from what I have seen. It looks like it will set a new standard for golf in austin. Definitely the most money/time the city has ever put into a course in these parts


Can't wait. Is this part kind of a sorry we took Pease away from you, here is a badass new course?
FRITZ
Team Millennium
Play Smart. Keep it Simple. Throw MILLENNIUM.
#26702 ♦ CE Omega ♦ Omega SS ♦ QMS ♦ Q Sentinel ♦ CE JLS ♦ Q Polaris ♦ Q Astra ♦ QOLS ♦ QOLF ♦ Q Quasar ♦ CE Exp-1
Fritz
Naturally Athletic
User avatar
 
Posts: 4675
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Fruita, CO
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby mark12b » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:25 am

rehder wrote:I still think one solution to NAGS is making the putting circle smaller. By using a basket such as the bullseye from gateway would force players to land it close to the basket. Getting it to within 30-25feet would no longer give you an 'easy' putt. To get an easy putt, you would then need to get it within 15feet. Actually this would not remove NAGS zones, but it would move them in closer to the basket.


Obligatory reference to the baskets at Lake Stevens DGC

Image

The top bars and chain assembly is different for each hole, so that you really have to aim for a certain part of the green if you want a makable putt. On some holes 50% of the basket is pretty much blocked, so you could be looking at a 10-footer and have a real risk/reward situation (many of the greens are on fast slopes). The idea behind the basket design was specifically to simulate the kind of variation you get with ball-golf greens, and to keep the course interesting despite lots of short holes. I think they're cool but most golfers complain about these baskets. :D
Last edited by mark12b on Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
mark12b
1000 Rated Poster
User avatar
 
Posts: 1177
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:28 pm
Location: Seattle

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Fritz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:31 am

Chuck Kennedy wrote:
I think requiring the use of a large diameter putter would accomplish nothing other than more frustration of spit outs. You think you get spit outs now? Imagine the spit outs from a Zephyer or Condor. Look how many times now with the current putters available, you hit dead center chains and it hits the rim of the cage and out it goes.

No different than lip outs with golf balls. Apparently you haven't played Super Class DG. It's only a little tougher putting with Zephyrs inside 20'. It's not just opinion but based on scores in a hundred sanctioned Super Class rounds. We have a few players who switched to using them for their regular putters once they played in Super Class events.

Where switching to Zephyrs and larger for pros only would make more of a difference is on longer putts. That's where putting is "too easy" for the better pros. That would bring putting percentages more in line with ball golf which as a game has a better balance between putting versus other shots than DG. When there's more doubt about whether a player will make a putt, there's more potential interest for spectators. Where this relates to NAGS is the tougher you make putting, the less NAGS is a design concern. Even though ball golfers have been hitting longer on older par 4 designs, you don't hear about NAGS, just that the best pro golfers need to be better with their wedges because putting is still tough.


I haven't. I tried all year for the past couple years to set up a SC tournament, but no interest over here where I live :(
I have used Superclass discs to putt with before, the Snap Whitler and liked it. But man was it tough to make longer putts.

Here's a question though, do Pros start to perfect their approach shots and putting skills to the point where they don't land in the "putting zone" so that they can avoid having to us the large diameter disc and call their throw an approach shot that happens to go in?
FRITZ
Team Millennium
Play Smart. Keep it Simple. Throw MILLENNIUM.
#26702 ♦ CE Omega ♦ Omega SS ♦ QMS ♦ Q Sentinel ♦ CE JLS ♦ Q Polaris ♦ Q Astra ♦ QOLS ♦ QOLF ♦ Q Quasar ♦ CE Exp-1
Fritz
Naturally Athletic
User avatar
 
Posts: 4675
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Fruita, CO
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby zj1002 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:35 am

Fritz wrote:
zj1002 wrote:You need to get down here and play MetCenter and Guerrero(opens in Feb). Met is the best example I have ever played on of an open course that requires pinpoint placement. Roy G Guerrero park which opens next month is a Mike Olse course(so its in a way Houck inspired) that looks amazing from what I have seen. It looks like it will set a new standard for golf in austin. Definitely the most money/time the city has ever put into a course in these parts


Can't wait. Is this part kind of a sorry we took Pease away from you, here is a badass new course?


yep. It was supposed to go in before they pulled Pease. Then the course was put on hold because some folks in the neighborhood were against disc golf going into land that was bought specifically for disc golf. They claimed it would ruin the nature areas that exist in other parts of the park and that disc would only attract "white college kids". So it almost got cancelled by a few months ago it was green-lit and they have busted their asses to build the course. As "echo-friendly" as possible to prevent erosion and tree loss. If you friend Waterloo Disc Golf Club on Facebook they have posted an album of the course http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.347952438568253.97241.169803583049807&type=3
Omega - QMS - MD2 - QJLS - OLF/S - DD - Scorpius
Tell me and I'll forget; Show me and I may remember; Involve me and I'll understand
zj1002
metroid cannon
 
Posts: 3432
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2008 4:52 pm
Location: Austin TX
Favorite Disc: QMS

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby JR » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:21 pm

turso wrote:Complex matter, this. I don't see making exceptions to make things more difficult just for the pros feasible. Making them use size restricted discs seems just dumb to me, but I wouldn't mind adding a few puts per round more if they decided to make the baskets smaller, but they'd have to make the transition time to the smaller baskets at least 10 years since baskets don't come cheap and asking every course that wants to be a pdga certified for competition would be too taxing I think.

Adjusting the accepted basket size to smaller now, but still accepting the current baskets for a period of transition would probably work just fine. But again, is it the best choice or needed at all for that matter?


If it were to be seen as an advantage to diminish basket sizes one could remove the outer chains of the existing baskets for el cheapo.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
JR
Scandinavian Video Mafia
User avatar
 
Posts: 11538
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 6:07 am
Location: Finland, sea level
Favorite Disc: About to ace

Re: "NAGS" Zone

Postby Fritz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:24 pm

OMG!!! That place looks amazing! Those teepads are sick! I am even more jealous you get to play that course whenever you want.
FRITZ
Team Millennium
Play Smart. Keep it Simple. Throw MILLENNIUM.
#26702 ♦ CE Omega ♦ Omega SS ♦ QMS ♦ Q Sentinel ♦ CE JLS ♦ Q Polaris ♦ Q Astra ♦ QOLS ♦ QOLF ♦ Q Quasar ♦ CE Exp-1
Fritz
Naturally Athletic
User avatar
 
Posts: 4675
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 2:01 pm
Location: Fruita, CO
Favorite Disc: QMS

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: keltik and 1 guest