Spin vs. Torque

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Spin vs. Torque

Postby Stringbean » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:10 pm

This question is geared mainly towards advanced players / pros...

When it comes to shaping shots, do you commonly adjust the amount of spin you put on the disc to shape different lines? Or do you keep the ratio of spin:torque generally the same and pick a certain disc that will shape the line for you?
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby JHern » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:00 pm

Spin "w" and torque "T" are correlated, as in T=I*w where I is the moment of inertia. Note the resemblance to F=m*a, in fact T=I*w is the same as F=m*a in rotational mechanics.

The relevant question is whether a player modulates their spin ratio (or the inverse, called the "advance ratio") for various throws, which is the rate of spin relative to the linear velocity of the disc moving through the air.

We've discussed this at length previously here on DGR, although I don't have time to search for the thread. There was broad disagreement on this issue. And even when I ask top pros about this, they didn't seem to have a solid grasp about whether or not they were doing this consciously. But in fact, there are examples where they modulate spin/speed, but they use terms like "touch" instead.

Throwers that can't generate a lot of spin are better off using over-stable discs as a crutch. Throwers that can generate more spin can throw understable plastic very far on stable lines. The best example of a high spin-rate player I can think of is Eric McCabe. And of course, Kenny Climo can do it all.
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby Stringbean » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:45 pm

Thanks... yes the ratio of spin to velocity is what I was referring to. I will see if I can track down one of the older discussions on the issue.

Seems like it would be a huge factor in progressing as a player. If you can manipulate spin/velocity along with nose angle and adjust on the fly, you should be able to throw any line imaginable line with a neutral disc.

With the large range of speeds and stabilities on the market today, I wonder if it holds players back in that it is easier to switch between understable / overstable discs rather than learn how to adjust technique to shape any given line.
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby Stringbean » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:11 pm

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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby JHern » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:09 am

Stringbean wrote:...Seems like it would be a huge factor in progressing as a player. If you can manipulate spin/velocity along with nose angle and adjust on the fly, you should be able to throw any line imaginable line with a neutral disc...


I agree, but as you suggested above, I suspect that many players instead use the huge disc selections available today as a crutch, instead.

The kind of skills we're talking about are certainly possessed by old school Frisbee artists, free-stylers, etc.. I've played golf rounds with people like Skippy Jammer, and I have to say their disc skills are highly impressive on the course, as well as in free-style competition. I've also played with old school guys who could work insane lines over surprisingly short distances, banging putts that seem impossible, doing things link carving an S-line around 2 trees, and hyzer-stalling in the basket over inside-the-circle distances. Much of this has to do with adding and subtracting spin. From time-to-time I've been able to execute the anhyzer stall shot, which requires a great deal of spin to resist hyzer-dumping...that's my favorite kind of throw, and probably one of the most difficult.
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby JR » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:25 pm

Avery said he does add spin for approaches at times but not on drives. Juho Parviainen uses a lot of active wrist extension in drives and he was close to 700' at big D 8.

Not a pro but i do add spin to approaches and rarely to long runs and often to annies and at times to s curves weaving around obstacles with a utility os disc that would fade out early otherwise on lines that a less os disc will not flex out of. Ceilings force more os discs to fade even with low throws. Extreme conditions require extreme flight characteristics and at times skill cannot replace disc characteristics. But for us discs more spin does wonders.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby Mark Ellis » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:01 pm

I don't consciously add spin to any shot. I don't even think in terms of spin or amount of spin. Spin is inevitable, sort of like gravity, but nothing I pay attention to. I think in terms of speed or power.

The closest I come to adjusting spin comes on a short upshot where I may throw something akin to an "air bounce" (freestyle term) or an elevator shot ( a high, short shot to pop over a bush or similar obstacle and float straight down) which I guess is more spin and less speed. The technique is nose up and but otherwise dead nuts flat (so no hyzer or anhyzer). The angle of release is my focus on this kind of shot, not how much spin to put on it.

I know some good players modify spin but I'm not sure what good it does them. If I modify how hard I throw a disc doesn't this accomplish the same thing?
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby Stringbean » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:22 pm

Yes, modifying speed while maintaining the same amount of spin would accomplish the same thing. I guess the question is geared more towards adjusting the ratio rather than simply adding or removing spin.
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby discraft » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:38 am

I adjust the power for the disc I am shaping. Spin just happens. It is more like adjusting reach back and speed for me.

Like my beat to hell Avenger.

Thrown flat @ 100% power it's a roller
Thrown slight hyzer @ 80% power its a turn over that never comes out.
Thrown extream hyzer ( / ) @ 60% power it will S.
New Avenger thrown flat goes straight.

I base it all on my normal power thrown flat for any given disc.
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Re: Spin vs. Torque

Postby JR » Fri Sep 27, 2013 2:32 am

You can change the flight line and distance with different amount of spin too. Not with speed alone but the flight lines for any given disc can be different with a high spin throw to a high speed throw but the major difference between those two modes is how far the disc goes and how it will skip. So you need to think in terms of speed and speed/spin ratio.

An example: You need to throw far right over a row of tall trees so far away that you need to use a warp speeder. You crank it out at full speed no modification to the spin with an understable disc that you know to be able to maintain the flight annied into the ground. Add wind and swirls around the tree tops and an understable disc will flip even at tree top height into a roller leaving you left and possibly far. So you need a more overstable or straight disc when thrown flat and low to tackle the wind. Unfortunately then the discs that fly so on low lines tend to fade out on normal full power high throws. What you need to avoid the stall out is to spin the disc a lot so that it does not pull out of anny.

A different example: You need an approach shot that goes to the left of a tree with low branches annied so that the disc ends up to the right of the tree so that the disc doesn't hit the next tree behind the first one that you need to go around of on the right and then the disc needs to fade hard to the left of the second tree in order to park under the basket. You need a meat hook disc started anny and if you under power the shot it will fade out and hit the second tree. If you overpower it it will go long and right. If you put the correct amount of power depending on exactly where the trees and the basket are the disc may not have enough right to left movement to avoid one or both of the disc per given anny angle and the distance of the trees from each other and the basket from the second tree. So you either change the anny angle and take your lumps not reaching the basket or you modify the flight in how much the disc moves laterally and where distance wise with spin.

There are plenty of ways to get a disc to roll extremely quickly hitting ground close to the thrower for escape shots. I imagine that there are no tees that need a roller off the tee hitting the ground within 20'. One way to reinforce the flip is to maximize the speed vs spin ratio on top of other flip exaggerating methods. Like OAT in plane breaking and wrist rolling. Possibly pulling the disc low and bending the knees a lot too to start the disc low to the ground to go under branches. The way you minimize spin but get speed is throw balls out with a locked wrist meaning you need to use a lot of forearm muscle power and perhaps not everyone can pull that off. New players are probably more likely to suffer from a lack of power to pull that off.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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