## Par on holes

Disc Golf Talk

Moderators: Timko, Solty, Frank Delicious, Blake_T, Fritz, Booter

Weebl wrote:2. Instead of counting my multiples of 3 (counting raw score) you can keep score easier by remembering smaller numbers

I think that's really how par is used in disc golf right now. Most players don't carry score cards and since most courses don't have any sort of realistic par listed (I've seen 250' open holes listed as par 4 before) it's just easier to use 3 for each hole when you're keeping score in your head. Personally, I think for that type of usage, listing everything as a par 3 is a good solution.

The real argument is whether or not the usage of par should change to be the same as ball golf. To do that we'd need a universally accepted system or two (one for pro and one for rec) to establish par for each hole and most importantly, scorecards for each course with the pars listed. Given how much many of the disc golf courses are vandalized and underfunded, I don't really see this happening on a large scale for a while. That leads to this Eddie Van Halen/Triumphent Video type argument about how we need a universal system for par to get the sport recoginzed so it can grow, but we need the sport to grow so we can get better funding for courses so we can establish a universal par system. In my opinion, a par system should be established as soon as possible so it's ready to be in place when the sport calls for it on a large scale.

That's just my \$1/50. In reality, I almost never keep score when I play.
Disc Whore

Posts: 3459
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:37 am
Location: Urbandale, IA

I call everything a par 3 when I play just because it's easy to keep score, but that doesn't mean I actually believe that every course I play is a 54 par.

Saying every hole is a par 3 takes away the meaning of par, and makes it a worthless number.

Example: Two guys of equal skill level are 4 states apart. On their home courses (all marked as par 3s), BillyBob consistently shoots -1 while Jimbo consistently shoots +4. They go to a tournament and are talking about thier usual rounds and BillyBob thinks he's going to destroy Jimbo in this tournament. Turns out they shoot the same score -- because par was a completely meaningless number that has no bearing on thier play. If the pars on their home courses had meant something (like par is supposed to, that's the whole concept), than they would have had an accurate comparison of each other and know that they are of equal skill.

It isn't a perfect system, but that's the idea of par -- a number that actually means something.
"a man is a success if he gets up in the morning and he gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do."
-- bob dylan
bigs348
Fairway Surgeon

Posts: 799
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:27 pm
Location: new jersey

the invisible tree wrote:I have to say that this whole "every hole is a par 3" nonsense really sticks in my craw. I can cope with the fact that certain people are going to maintain different thoughts about what par is; but I'm not going to accept someone trying to impose that garbage on me. Why is is that all the "par 3" people are the same people that insist on scoring everything with a +1, -1, etc??!?!? I hate that! Go on thinking whatever you want but if you keep my score you better mark it with the number of strokes it took me to hole out and not in relation to your ridiculous idea of par

*** Rips nonsense out of the invisible tree's craw ***

Sorry, not trying to impose this garbage on anyone.

A little about me: I am a rec player at heart. I call the game Frisbee (t) Golf. I enjoy playing a round with my wife and our friends more than playing tournaments. I play 0-1 tournaments (Adv. Am.) a year and 2-3 tag matches a month. Oh yeah, I'm inherrantly lazy (my word). Other's call it efficient.

When I play casual rounds and tag matches, score cards are not provided. It is much easier (remember, I'm lazy) to keep score by ones and twos than it is by threes and fours. At the end of these rounds, it is also easier for me to remember that I shot a -4 or a + 1 than it is a (whatever that actual number of strokes is.) Lucky for me, this is the way that the local disc golf community keeps score in Tags. (When in Rome...)

Tournaments are a different story. You are provided a scorecard, you are expected to keep score using actual strokes. (Again, when in Rome...)

As a side note, in most of the tournaments I've played, Par is not listed on the scorecards. I think this is the case because Par really is meaningless in terms of the game itself. Do I approach a hole differently if it's listed as a par 2 or par 20? No. My goal is to get the disc in the basket in the fewest strokes possible. As a convinence, par is invaluable. (which is why us lazy people love it!)
Last edited by trogdor on Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pred, Wraith, TeeBird, Eagle, Whippet, Cobra, Rhyno, Arrow
trogdor
Tree Magnet

Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:10 pm

I think the original concept of Par is more related to hole distance than it is hole difficulty. Like in Ball Golf, if a hole is 325-450 yards you know it will be a Par 4 because it will always require a drive, Iron shot and two putts. How difficult each of those shots is is irrelevant, it will still be a Par 4 everytime. The same should apply to disc golf and generally the 120ft rule is a good guideline as a 2-putt range.

So if Par doesnt indicate difficulty is it even useful? Not really, but it is what it is.

trogdor wrote:
the invisible tree wrote:Do I approach a hole differently if it's listed as a par 2 or par 20? No. My goal is to get the disc in the basket in the fewest strokes possible.

i dont agree with that. sure, your home course it dosent matter because you could play it with your eyes closed, but what about visitors, and when you play some where else. i hate it when there is a new course without tee signs because i use them as a guide of how i should shoot. a par 3 thats 500' is straight forward, while a 300' par 4 will have some hard mando or a tricky shot some where. You dont always have time to walk a new course before you play it, and you dont always have the luxury of playing with someone who helped lay it out. for me, par serves as a dificulty raiting for each hole, thats all. around here, everybody plays par as 54, but every one of the 7 courses in rochester has a rec par because its usefull, especially for tournaments when you have people from all over playing for the first time.
jgarcia9102
Tree Magnet

Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:07 pm
Location: Rochester NY

jgarcia9102 wrote:a 300' par 4 will have some hard mando or a tricky shot some where.

I don't understand.

Knowing something is tricky about the hole doesn't help me. Knowing there's a small landing area right about where my typical drive would land does.
Pred, Wraith, TeeBird, Eagle, Whippet, Cobra, Rhyno, Arrow
trogdor
Tree Magnet

Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:10 pm

Sorry for the newb question, but I assume a lot of you dont use handicaps' and so on? For the newer player, Handcaps are a really good way of knowing how well you should be playing on a course. Harder courses have higher Scratch scores than easier ones. Its cool that there are harder and easier courses. But it would still be nice to know, whether you played well or not.
rehder
1000 Rated Poster

Posts: 1045
Joined: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:58 pm
Location: Discn in northern Europe

trogdor wrote:
jgarcia9102 wrote:a 300' par 4 will have some hard mando or a tricky shot some where.

I don't understand.

Knowing something is tricky about the hole doesn't help me. Knowing there's a small landing area right about where my typical drive would land does.

i get what your saying, i just think if you see a par 4 hole, theres a reason its a par 4 (or at least there should be). like a difficulty rating.
jgarcia9102
Tree Magnet

Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:07 pm
Location: Rochester NY

My home course has natural tees. There is a buried 4x4 marking the front of each that has a par carved into it. There are 3's, 4's and 5's. I play all of them as 3 since they are not difficult enough to warrant the extra throws. I think it actually adds confusion sometimes if I meet a new person on the course and they ask what I usually score. I have to ask if they play all 3's or if they follow the markings.

On the other hand, I often take my nephew there. I think it helps him to enjoy the game a little more if he can "par" the 330' hole insead of taking a double bogey. Considering that most of us are happy to bring new players into the sport, I think these generous par settings are somewhat helpful.

Now consider ball golf. If I ever play a bogey round on anything other than a par 3 course I will be jumping up and down with joy. I sure don't like getting triple bogeys, but I understand that probably 80% of the people on the course get a score similar to or worse than mine.

I'm pretty undecided on this whole matter, but there is only one hole I've ever played that I cannot get a 3 on (#8 long at Plymouth Creek)
krusen
Tree Magnet

Posts: 443
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 4:43 pm
Location: Hutchinson, MN
Favorite Disc: Old Mold DX Beast

jgarcia...I think I'm starting to see what you're saying. A par 4 makes you focus on the hole a little more.

Ex of internal dialogue (Hmm. Par 4...Doesn't look too long...what make's this a par 4....Oh! There's a tree limb about 20' up on the hyzer route...Do I go anny or just throw a low hyzer an hope for the best...low hyzer [Trogdor hits low tree limb] )
Pred, Wraith, TeeBird, Eagle, Whippet, Cobra, Rhyno, Arrow
trogdor
Tree Magnet

Posts: 290
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 5:10 pm

Yep, thats what i was thinking.
jgarcia9102
Tree Magnet

Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:07 pm
Location: Rochester NY

we do everything par 3 just because it's easier to tally up the scores for 18 holes.

when i play out of town, i do the same.

that's 'cause i suck at math
Do not resist chances. . . and there will be one less thing you cannot do -ACG
calvarycoffee
Tree Magnet

Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2005 12:49 am
Location: Mason City, IA

bigs348 wrote:but that's the idea of par -- a number that actually means something.

They have SSA for this, search google for "SSA ______" where ___= your course name. It changes for layeouts based on tee position, pin position, weather conditions, ect.
Weebl
1000 Rated Poster

Posts: 1082
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 12:31 pm
Location: Monterey Bay, California

### Play them as 3's!

For me, my home course when I first started about three - four years ago was Old Settlers Park in Round Rock Texas. Its a big arm course with lots of holes in the 400' to 500' foot range, and two over 1000'. When I moved to Waco Texas and started playing Cameron Park West, ant the Beast (Cameron East) everyone played holes as 3's. So now everything is a three when I play, and I like the challenge. Playing everything as 3's kind of gives you bragging rights when you are playing long tees and birding them, or paring them....My best singles score at Old Settlers is 62 (8 over par). Thats pretty good with two holes that take at least 4-5 drives, and numerous 400 footers.....And yes, this puts everyone in the same boat. 3 is the magic number!
Tree Magnet

Posts: 175
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:58 am
Location: Texas

who cares what par for the hole or the course is? We play I complete the round in less throws than you did and I win... It doesnt matter if the hole is 30 feet or 3000 feet everyone plays the same hole and counts the ammount of shots it takes to hole it out.

There is a lot of contreversy right now about par in disc golf and I feel like there is a lot of wasted time and energy talking about it, the local course here is pretty fair and mostly open with a few guardian trees to shape some routes, most of the "players" in town will shoot 45-49 pretty consistantly, does that mean par should be 47 for the course? I think no but the ssa for the course comes in around 53 so does that mean par is 53? We took the par scoring system from ball golf but it is a peice that does not fit in disc golf. In ball golf the par is based on gir and putt, to par a hole you are expected to hit the gir and 2 putt, If you hit the green in disc golf and two putt that usually equals a bogey, so to really model it after golf you would have to make par threes that were easily reachable in one drive, par 4 would need to be almost twice the distance of the average drive (if average drive = 400 par 4 = over 800 feet) par 5 would not fit in most of the parks that courses are in now, you are talking about a hole over 1200 feet and that should still be a fairly routine 4 for the solid advanced or higher player.

I think that the PDGA is working on a plan with all the SSA and WCP documents that Chuck Kennedy is making. The trick is to really consider who the par is geared to, I like to go back to the ball golf model, I think we should be handicapping the holes on the course to help balance out where the strokes are going...

my.02
superq
Tree Magnet

Posts: 383
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 11:15 am
Location: Waiting
Favorite Disc: FOCUS

PreviousNext