Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby marmoset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:08 am

discspeed wrote:
marmoset wrote:I agree, touch is vastly overlooked in today's younger generation of golfers. IMO the Buzzz (and discs like it) cater to the power biased crowd and are pulling golfers further and further away from the old-school finesse golf.


To be fair, the Roc actually started this, and with each retool it has been designed to be more of a power and less of a finesse disc. The Buzzz is just a logical extension of this.


I see what you are saying.
The reason I said Buzzz is because it like being thrown hard and on a lower line than the Roc. Given its popularity, it is teaching tons of golfers to throw hard and low which to me is synonomous with power-play rather than finesse play. That's why I singled out the Buzzz. There are a bunch of other discs that fit into this category but none as popular as the Buzzz.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby discspeed » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:47 am

marmoset wrote:
discspeed wrote:
marmoset wrote:I agree, touch is vastly overlooked in today's younger generation of golfers. IMO the Buzzz (and discs like it) cater to the power biased crowd and are pulling golfers further and further away from the old-school finesse golf.


To be fair, the Roc actually started this, and with each retool it has been designed to be more of a power and less of a finesse disc. The Buzzz is just a logical extension of this.


I see what you are saying.
The reason I said Buzzz is because it like being thrown hard and on a lower line than the Roc. Given its popularity, it is teaching tons of golfers to throw hard and low which to me is synonomous with power-play rather than finesse play. That's why I singled out the Buzzz. There are a bunch of other discs that fit into this category but none as popular as the Buzzz.


I just think that trend started long before the Buzzz was even conceived. Blame Climo...He came to dominate the scene preferring to throw low, hard, and straight a long time ago.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby Trey133 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:51 am

Blame it on the first beveled edge disc that could handle more power and sustain glide.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby marmoset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:54 am

Thanks a lot, Climo!
Thanks a lot, Dunipace!

Honestly, I like most golf discs. I just get nostalgic about old-school stuff and I think they are underappreciated.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby zj1002 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:56 am

I play with an Ultimate guy and he pulls off some crazy shots with the polecat. from 150-200 ft in he can park it forehand/backhand. he works on a lot of lines beautifully.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby marmoset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:22 am

jubuttib wrote:what'd you guys recommend as my first DG lid? Rattler? Polecat? Even a Comet (which isn't a lid but apparently sort of flies like one)?


Ooops, sorry; missed this question.

The Comet is only lid-ish but I'd still highly recommend it. It grips just like a normal golf disc which eliminates one of the primary complaints that golfers have with throwing lids. Even though it grips like a golf disc, it flies more like a lid. This is the best finesse disc that I've come across.
The Zephyr is what everyone seems to use for Super Class. It is the opposite of a Comet. It grips more like a lid but flies more like a golf disc. This is why people like them for Super Class. BTW, if you don't like Thumtracs then don't get a Zephyr.

I've used the Putt'r and Polecat as primary putters and I can recommend them. Rattlers and Whitlers should be included in this group but I haven't tried one yet.

But when I go for the lid experience I really want to change the entire way I view the course. I use an Ultrastar for days like this. All the other discs I mentioned are more of a compromise between lid/disc golf. Ultrastars make no such compromise... it's all lid.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby jubuttib » Tue Apr 27, 2010 9:50 am

marmoset wrote:
jubuttib wrote:what'd you guys recommend as my first DG lid? Rattler? Polecat? Even a Comet (which isn't a lid but apparently sort of flies like one)?


Ooops, sorry; missed this question.

The Comet is only lid-ish but I'd still highly recommend it. It grips just like a normal golf disc which eliminates one of the primary complaints that golfers have with throwing lids. Even though it grips like a golf disc, it flies more like a lid. This is the best finesse disc that I've come across.
The Zephyr is what everyone seems to use for Super Class. It is the opposite of a Comet. It grips more like a lid but flies more like a golf disc. This is why people like them for Super Class. BTW, if you don't like Thumtracs then don't get a Zephyr.

I've used the Putt'r and Polecat as primary putters and I can recommend them. Rattlers and Whitlers should be included in this group but I haven't tried one yet.

But when I go for the lid experience I really want to change the entire way I view the course. I use an Ultrastar for days like this. All the other discs I mentioned are more of a compromise between lid/disc golf. Ultrastars make no such compromise... it's all lid.

Thanks. It's a compromise I'm looking for. I want something that's lid like in flight but not quite as huge as an Ultra-Star, so that it actually likes going into the basket. Lid-grip is not a problem at all, I've been throwing them as long as I can remember.

I'll probably go with a Comet at first, I've been wanting to try one out for a while now. What plastic do you recommend? Probably will also get a Polecat later on instead of a Rattler, since it's easier (and cheaper) for me to buy Innova.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby marmoset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:52 am

jubuttib wrote:
marmoset wrote:
jubuttib wrote:what'd you guys recommend as my first DG lid? Rattler? Polecat? Even a Comet (which isn't a lid but apparently sort of flies like one)?


Ooops, sorry; missed this question.

The Comet is only lid-ish but I'd still highly recommend it. It grips just like a normal golf disc which eliminates one of the primary complaints that golfers have with throwing lids. Even though it grips like a golf disc, it flies more like a lid. This is the best finesse disc that I've come across.
The Zephyr is what everyone seems to use for Super Class. It is the opposite of a Comet. It grips more like a lid but flies more like a golf disc. This is why people like them for Super Class. BTW, if you don't like Thumtracs then don't get a Zephyr.

I've used the Putt'r and Polecat as primary putters and I can recommend them. Rattlers and Whitlers should be included in this group but I haven't tried one yet.

But when I go for the lid experience I really want to change the entire way I view the course. I use an Ultrastar for days like this. All the other discs I mentioned are more of a compromise between lid/disc golf. Ultrastars make no such compromise... it's all lid.

Thanks. It's a compromise I'm looking for. I want something that's lid like in flight but not quite as huge as an Ultra-Star, so that it actually likes going into the basket. Lid-grip is not a problem at all, I've been throwing them as long as I can remember.

I'll probably go with a Comet at first, I've been wanting to try one out for a while now. What plastic do you recommend? Probably will also get a Polecat later on instead of a Rattler, since it's easier (and cheaper) for me to buy Innova.


Z Comets are themost overstable. X is the least. ESP is closer to Z but they really fall in between the 2 stabilities.
X has the most glide. All of them break in pretty slowly and evenly.
Domey Comets tend to have the best stability.

Lid-like golf discs? I think your choices are...
Putt'r
Rattler Putter
Birdie
Birdie (retooled)
Pole Cat
Sonic
Whitler

And one of the Lightning Putters is lid-like. I can't remember if it is the #2 Putter, the Rubber Putter, or the Upshot.

Honestly, if the Innova is easier and cheaper to buy, I'd go that route.
The Birdie has a Thumtrac just like the Rhyno. It has decent HSS and is not as finessey as I'd prefer. IIRC, the original Birdie is now the Polecat. Innova tweaked the mold by adding a Thumtrac and kept the Birdie name. People complained so Innova re-released the original mold under the new Polecat name.
The Sonic is a catch frisbee that meets PDGA diameter and weight requirements and it's molded in DX plastic. I haven't thrown one but I hear some old-timers love them because they are basically Wham-O Fastback copies in a heavier weight. I have a Fastback and it is okay. I think Fastbacks @ 120-ish grams are what people like to use for MTA events. So if the Sonic actually flies like a Fastback then it should have great height retention but will not take too much armspeed before it starts flipping. I've had the Fastback in my bag and I've used it in the woods pretty effectively. A small flick of the wrist and that guy goes floating down the fairway with 0 turn and 0 fade. But it only goes like 150', that's the catch. Mine never gets above 5' off the ground the entire way so it is great for scootching underneath low branches.

Of the 3 innova lids I would recommend the Polecat. It is workable enough for finessing and stout enough for relatively monster drives. I know I've gotten mine past 250' (170 grams and hyzer flipped to a turnover, and I definitely had to use all the tricks I know) and I don't have the greatest form. They don't break in very quickly but then again I don't throw mine very hard at all; that's not the role they fill in my bag. Polecats roll and do other tricks pretty well.

I chose the Polecat because it is easier to overcook it compared to the Birdie. The Birdie has too much HSS for the slot I was auditioning. IMO, Birdies are more for people who want an Aviar type flight with a liddish profile.

I hope this helps, ask more questions if I didn't touch on something you wanted to hear.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby veganray » Tue Apr 27, 2010 10:59 am

IIRC, the original Birdie is now the Polecat. Innova tweaked the mold by adding a Thumtrac and kept the Birdie name. People complained so Innova re-released the original mold under the new Polecat name.


I think not. I've got both an old-mold Birdie & a Polecat right next to me. Birdie has a slightly larger diameter, more rounded shoulders, and a much deeper profile with a higher dome. Similar, but nowhere near identical.
Last edited by veganray on Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:51 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby marmoset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:07 am

veganray wrote:I think not. I've got both an old-mold Birdie & a Polecat right next to me. Birdie has a slightly larger diameter, more rounded shoulders, and a much deeper profile with a higher dome. Similar, but nowhere near identical.

Hm.
I wonder where I heard that from.
Guess I was wrong, sorry for the mis-info.
Thanks for the catch VeganRay! :)
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby jubuttib » Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:33 am

marmoset wrote:I hope this helps, ask more questions if I didn't touch on something you wanted to hear.

Helps plenty, but didn't really answer the question "What plastic do you recommend?" I've never thrown a Comet so I don't know where to begin if comparative stabilities are all that's available. I'm guessing the ESP, since it's between the two extremes, but what's the most lid-like and workable? The X? Does "best stability" mean "most stability" or just best working in your opinion?
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby marmoset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:45 pm

jubuttib wrote:
marmoset wrote:Does "best stability" mean "most stability" or just best working in your opinion?

It means that I think it has the most desireable amount of stability and glide out of the 3 in-production options. Actually there are only 2 in-production options, the LEs are not being run any more.

I didn't make a recmmendation because I didn't know what you priorities were :wink:
I'll describe them in a little more detail and let you decide which sounds best for your style.
Z Comets will fade about as much as a somewhat fresh DX Roc; kinda like a "broken in a little" but not a BEAT Roc except the Comet does not have nearly as much torque resistance.
ESP Comets are sweet, neutral flyers right off the shelf. They will fade a little but not the kind of fade you can count on to pull it out of an anny.
The X Comets don't have any fade to speak of unless they are brand spankin' new. They don't break in disproportionately fast, they just lose their fade kinda quickly IMO. After that initial stage they are glidey lil' finesse machines. For me, the X Comets are the easiest to manipulate and see results. You might do well to interpret that last sentence as "they can be twitchy little boogers if you get sloppy!"

If I were to take a guess, you'd probably be happiest with an ESP Comet but they are getting expensive in the US... I can only imagine how much they'd be after you pay shipping.
So for you I'd recommend a domey X Comet in a weight a little heavier than you're used to. If you throw pretty far or you usually throw max weight then I would suggest stepping up to the Z Comet.

The reason I don't recommend the Z Comet to you is that you mentioned you have thrown lids for your whole life. You are bound to have fairly solid form. Z Comets are probably going to be a little too overstable for what you want. Comets like all snap and very little armspeed so you can get past the relative overstability by ramping up your armspeed a little but that only really cures the high speed stability, not the low speed fade. Nose down would fix a lot of the fade but might make it too high speed understable.

I should remind you that I live @ 2200' above sea level so discs act a little more overstable for me.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't have time to proofread.

EDIT #2: To sum up, the X Comet is most lid-like in its stability. This is the fundamental reason I recommended it to you. Most people like the Z because it is less lid-like and more golf disc like.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby marmoset » Tue Apr 27, 2010 2:24 pm

What are Whitlers like? Are they more lid than golf disc?
After hearing the way people talk about them I would assume they are definitely more lid-like.
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby jubuttib » Tue Apr 27, 2010 4:29 pm

Thanks, sounds like a domey X is indeed what I'm looking for. Now I'll just have to locate one, hopefully in Finland. =)
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Re: Rattler, Putt'r, Polecat, Birdie..... a.k.a "the lid thread"

Postby Working Stiff » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:26 pm

marmoset wrote:
veganray wrote:I think not. I've got both an old-mold Birdie & a Polecat right next to me. Birdie has a slightly larger diameter, more rounded shoulders, and a much deeper profile with a higher dome. Similar, but nowhere near identical.

Hm.
I wonder where I heard that from.
Guess I was wrong, sorry for the mis-info.
Thanks for the catch VeganRay! :)
Innova tweaked the Piranha at some point. The original Thumtrac® was way out toward the edge of the disc, and the top was retooled to be more like the Thumtrac® on the Rhyno. The resulting disc wasn't as stable as the old Piranha and flew a lot like the Birdie. The Rhyno had kind-of replaced the Piranha as the overstable putter anyway, so the Piranha name was dropped but the mold that was supposed to be the next Piranha became the new Thumtrac® Birdie. The old Birdie mold went away.

The Polecat had been around for quite a few years by then and was unaffected by the Piranha/Birdie fun and games. It has a much shallower rim than the old mold Birdie.
Furthur wrote:Either get a lighter one, throw harder, or find a disc with more glide.
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