Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby JR » Tue Jun 07, 2011 1:16 pm

Got a Tournament plastic (GL type plastic from Lat64) 175 Sword. TP (for my bunghole) is flatter topped than VIP plastic which is Opto type plastic. Couldn't throw it yet. It is so thin that it grips well sidearm. That should help with dealing with the wing width for those with short fingers. Dunno when i get the chance to test it out.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby Smyith » Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:15 pm

ive been throwing mine for the last week. honestly its very wraith like. JR is definitely right about the rim and how thin it is. it feels more like the speed 9s and 10s in the hand.
My observations so far (All RHBH)
no wind it flips flat when throwing with some hyzer, rides a flat line with slight rightward pull and then has very gentle consistent fade. throw it with alot of hyzer and it will ride a long hyzer route all the way.
L>R winds. thrown flat it will flip!and run right with no fade.throw it with descent hyzer and it will hold a nice straight flat line with little to no fade.
R>L winds. thrown flat it will remain straight almost its entire flight and not fade hard.
tailwinds. it can really cruise with the wind at its back. long straight shot or tight S shots. it does real well.
headwinds. it blows. does some crazy things. no consistency. i gave up trying to figure out a release angle that will work consistently

All in all i like it. its compliments the flow nicely in my distance slot. i get very similar max distance with my flow except the sword holds tighter lines. i can see it really excelling in the tight distance lines through the woods. the big guns will probably not like it.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby JR » Wed Jun 08, 2011 2:12 am

Which plastic and weight is your Sword? The same for your Flow. I have the stupid flippy blue GL Flow that is Sidewinderish and early yellow tall Opto Flow that is super tight in the lines ans the only way it would be tighter would be lessened fade.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby Jeronimo » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:14 pm

Interesting, not to sound redundant but along the same lines as what JR said... I really can't imagine a disc holding tighter lines than my Opto Flow. For a max D driver it's laser beam straight. Do you just have one Sword Smyith? If you have more than one can you make any comparisons between them?
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby Booter » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:17 pm

the sword is definitely less stable than my opto flows. i can atleast thrown my freshy flows in a moderate headwind with a little hyzer and do big flex shots with it. the sword just never came back on the same line. i was hoping it would be a more stable than the flow but its definitely not.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby JR » Thu Jun 09, 2011 2:16 am

Jeronimo wrote:Interesting, not to sound redundant but along the same lines as what JR said... I really can't imagine a disc holding tighter lines than my Opto Flow. For a max D driver it's laser beam straight. Do you just have one Sword Smyith? If you have more than one can you make any comparisons between them?


There is third type of Beast that is slightly more HSS and several feet of less fade than my domey early Opto Flow and pristine DX Valk is fine too.

I think that i can throw mine today so we'll see how my GL ahem Tournament plastic one fares.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby JR » Thu Jun 09, 2011 12:06 pm

Didn't get a lot of throws in in the wind and the time that i had. Strictly the first impression is that i need to give about 3-4 degrees of initial hyzer to my TP Sword to flip to flat. In that it is close to Archon. Fairly straight with more fade than some discs but i wasn't throwing to normal max D being cold and tossing the first throws of the day. Tired anyhow from prior training. Fair glide but Vip plastic has more dome so they should glide better. I gotta get more practice throws in to say anything definite.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby JR » Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:59 pm

Ran into Janne Penttilä owner of Westside Discs and he asked me to do a comparison between my Tournament Plastic 175 Sword and the loaner disc that is VIP Plastic 175 Sword.

I was tired when i started and did some filed practice then two rounds in the middle of which i talked to Janne and got the disc to test out. I was pretty tired when i went to field practice in a field. It started out as calm weather and in the end the winds picked up so that a broken in S PD 168 flipped to flat from about 7 degrees of hyzer and after 200' of flight was struck down by a gust flipping it 30 degrees in half a second. I was forced to throw into headwinds only. The field i was forced to go to is short and has a 3' mound in the far end at around 380-400' depending on the place and a wall of bushes on top of the mound stopping discs. I did not get in too many throws so it's a bit tentative especially because i was so tired that my joints twisted unexpectedly too often. I think i got enough good throws in to feel safe enough in these initial impressions being accurate enough.

Short version: Swords, especially the VIP, are Westside Destroyers or a tad more overstable Flows.

Some details: VIP comes back from anny more reliably and a little earlier and from steeper angles than Tournament Plastic. TP can remain annied to ground easily with too much anny. Where the threshold is is a matter for a later session. At 10 degrees TP didn't come back from a 10' apex. VIP did from 4 degrees apexing at 11-12'. Both gained nicely in distance with mild annies. Headwinds are a problem because you need to know the discs and compensate the initial hyzer to flip to flat or allow the disc to flip likely to a cut roller from flat. At full power left to me TP flipped about three degrees for me in calm winds but playing very tired most shots flipped only a degree. In calm weather i couldn't flip the VIP more than a degree. In headwinds at worst i had to give about 7-8 degrees for a flip to flat. I can't keep either of these from fading. The fade starts at about 330-350' with the TP starting a little later and a hair less. VIP is about a mm taller and is less concave in the wing. I couldn't tell a large difference in speed or glide. Both end up in the same distance roughly. TP tends to fly a few feet farther and skip less to the left and not so often or far as the VIP. On average across the plastic low line drives skip about 30 degrees to front left and the skips can be long like Innova speed 12 discs that are overstable do.

I threw a high PLH S-Line TD, 175 Champion Eagle and a broken in S PD 168 for comparison. Sword outdistanced each and ended farther on average than Flows at around where i get my Beasts. Beasts fade less thus glide more in the end of the flight for me thus catching up to the faster Sword that seems to have around similar glide in the flat portion of the flight. Beast start the fade a lot later and the tilting speed is way faster for the Sword. With a little anny Swords go farther than Beasts annied so the fade is the limiting factor for me. From video with less gripping power and less distance last year i filmed 14.5 revolutions per second exits for discs. Police radar clocked me at 92 KPH with a straight line pull throwing muscles cold and tired without necessary warming up. I have no idea how i've progressed since in RPM and exit speed.

The distances didn't change too much in headwinds and at times i threw beyond average D and at times under it. I saw two vertical quick height changes so it is not as wind neutral as a Roc for example but better than a Z Buzzz. I wouldn't worry about distance variations from wind lifts because the hyzer changes for varying wind speeds is the real issue in the wind. Although i would use a more true stable overstable disc. Sword seems like mostly Innova X winged disc with perhaps 10 % of L wing speed stability issues of changing the amount of flipping according to headwind speeds.

In conclusion Sword in both plastics based on one sample of each plastic is a competent mold in a hotly contested bracket on the disc speed and stability scale. I have a Hurricane that fades about the same but requires less power and flips a little more. I have a hard time telling if this disc is superior or inferior in any way to classic discs in this style because it is so close to Destroyers, Flows and Hurricanes for example. Because it is so close to being identical to the Destroyer it shares the same strengths and weaknesses in flight but in a different plastic. With one taste difference which is grip. Destroyers feel much clunkier and taller which means that smaller hands have much easier time of gripping Swords than Destroyers and the thinner profile makes forehanding much easier with Swords. The only weakness over the competition is the plastic in that they don't come in softer plastics for those who like them. TP is grippier but in the summer VIP is perfectly grippy enough when dry. Haven't thrown these discs in wet conditions yet. Sharing so much in the properties of the plastics with Latitude 64 degrees Opto being close to VIP and Gold Line being close to Tournament Plastic (pretty!!!) neither plastic takes kindly to hitting rocks. Getting damaged more than other premium plastics. TP is slightly more tacky and both are more tacky than most Z and Champion discs. Only the tackiest of Star plastic blends are tackier than TP Swords. And Prodiscus premium plastic. So the grip of the plastic on the Swords are on the better side of the premium plastics.

No need to tell that Swords are likeable discs just like the close matches that are well known and well loved.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby turso » Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:38 pm

Could this be, a temporary at the least, answer for people who hate the new destroyer run?
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby JR » Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:16 am

It sure could be but Swords fly like a little used Destroyer and are easier to grip than the original Destroyers. Thinking back the nose angle sensitivity of the Sword is almost as little as that of a Flow so a little better than a Destroyer.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby turso » Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:48 am

My favourites from destroyers were somewhat used pro destroyers so it sounds it might be a pretty sweet disc. Got two testers coming in today, gotta see when I can test em proper.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby Dag » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:23 am

Could someone contrast the flight characteristics of the Sword with those of the Boatman? Considering Westside's relatively small line-up, these two disc's flights are sounding very similar, not to mention the manufacturer assigned flight ratings are near the same.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby turso » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:37 am

Dag wrote:Could someone contrast the flight characteristics of the Sword with those of the Boatman? Considering Westside's relatively small line-up, these two disc's flights are sounding very similar, not to mention the manufacturer assigned flight ratings are near the same.


My friend's VIP Boatman is shorter, has earlier fade and is generally more overstable. He chose a higher than average PLH one though, but I'm guessing the average ones can't be far off.

As JR mentioned, the flight with some small preliminary testing is very similar to good pro destroyer, it flips very little at around 400' drives even when thrown head height. Seriously good feeling disc. That's the VIP plastic one at 175g, the Tournament plastic one flips just a small fraction more. Gonna have this guy on the track for few times, I love pro destros and if I can get that flight in premium plastic, it might be a serious contender for the Flow. The rim is thinner than the speed rating would let one to expect, very comfortable to grip.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby jubuttib » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:17 am

JR wrote:Short version: Swords, especially the VIP, are Westside Destroyers or a tad more overstable Flows.
Based on a couple of throws I would agree with the Destroyer comparison, I feel like it's like a slightly beat in premium or a new Pro Destroyer. The VIP especially seemed to mesh with my throw quite nicely. I do need a lot more time with it, but it has a chance to go in the bag.

Dag wrote:Could someone contrast the flight characteristics of the Sword with those of the Boatman? Considering Westside's relatively small line-up, these two disc's flights are sounding very similar, not to mention the manufacturer assigned flight ratings are near the same.
The Sword is in no way as overstable as the Boatman I've thrown. The Boatman has tons of HSS and more (but still surprisingly little) LSS. The Boatman feels like it would be a great straight disc for guys with big arms, where as the Sword is more suitable for lesser beings, without being flippy.
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Re: Westside Kalevan Miekka (sword)

Postby JR » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:57 pm

jubuttib wrote:
JR wrote:Short version: Swords, especially the VIP, are Westside Destroyers or a tad more overstable Flows.
Based on a couple of throws I would agree with the Destroyer comparison, I feel like it's like a slightly beat in premium or a new Pro Destroyer. The VIP especially seemed to mesh with my throw quite nicely. I do need a lot more time with it, but it has a chance to go in the bag.

Dag wrote:Could someone contrast the flight characteristics of the Sword with those of the Boatman? Considering Westside's relatively small line-up, these two disc's flights are sounding very similar, not to mention the manufacturer assigned flight ratings are near the same.
The Sword is in no way as overstable as the Boatman I've thrown. The Boatman has tons of HSS and more (but still surprisingly little) LSS. The Boatman feels like it would be a great straight disc for guys with big arms, where as the Sword is more suitable for lesser beings, without being flippy.


I don't plan on using the Boatman and haven't thrown it. If it fades more than a Sword it ain't for me. I prefer the other way less fading discs. For that Sword is too much. You gotta be a spin master to get Swords to go straight in the end of the flight or put way more than 400' on them. I own plenty of harder fading discs as it is. Wonder why Blake was touting the Boatmen did he get a straighter disc?
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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