Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby jubuttib » Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:55 pm

JHern wrote:
jubuttib wrote:
Frank Delicious wrote:isn't less stable = more straighter or do you mean something else?
In JHern talk (i.e. scientific) straight would mean neutral would mean as stable as it gets.


Um, I think stablest=straightest is universally accepted. Think about the word "stable" for a second.
Yes, in science and really should be everywhere, but just go to DGCR, they'll use stable and overstable almost as synonyms.

People are dumb.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby turso » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:12 pm

I think calling them dumb is giving them too much credit.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby ferretdance03 » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:18 pm

BLURR wrote:I had a chance to check out the Ti Force...this past weekend...the nose seems a touch sharper in shape than a normal Z or ESP. Seemed very fast...

I had the same experience. Although the player throwing it seemed to think it was fairly close in stability to a new ESP Force, he said it definitely seemed faster. I didn't have a chance to throw it, but the plastic felt nice enough.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Ryan C » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:49 pm

Can't you only call a disc understable or overstable in the context of camparing it to another disc?

Wouldn't an XXX be flippy if you could throw it 1,000 mph? So isn't just calling something more and less stable a more meaningful way of discussing flight characteristics? Some people would call a Boss overstable, but to me they are quite flippy. If we all just say, "more stable" and "less stable" then that is always meaningful. If I'm asking someone who only throws 350' how a Boss flies, then I can actually learn something if I ask him to tell me if its more or less stable than another disc.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Yleisliima » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:42 am

IMHO Ryan C nailed it. There seem to be two completely different meanings for the word "stable". Stable=straight is a very accurate and useful definition, and that's why I prefer it. The other way is calling a disc more or less stable than another disc. It seems to me the latter form is far more commonly used, and therefore I'm a bit hesitant to simply call it the wrong way to use a word.

As a side note, I think comments like "calling them dumb is giving them too much credit" are pretty obnoxious, especially when referring to a large nonuniform group of people :(
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Frank Delicious » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:06 am

Yleisliima wrote:As a side note, I think comments like "calling them dumb is giving them too much credit" are pretty obnoxious, especially when referring to a large nonuniform group of people :(


it's a joke.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby zj1002 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:34 am

The stalker is really nice. It came out better than the buzzz. Its a lot like a QJ and has more HSS than its other counterparts which tended to flip up. It still isn't headwind friendly but it's the best stalker to date. Molded up really well

And I got to watch ZAM 360 it
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby jubuttib » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:51 am

Yleisliima wrote:As a side note, I think comments like "calling them dumb is giving them too much credit" are pretty obnoxious, especially when referring to a large nonuniform group of people :(
You live in Helsinki, you know for a fact that people are idiots.

Back on the subject:
Yleisliima wrote:IMHO Ryan C nailed it. There seem to be two completely different meanings for the word "stable". Stable=straight is a very accurate and useful definition, and that's why I prefer it. The other way is calling a disc more or less stable than another disc. It seems to me the latter form is far more commonly used, and therefore I'm a bit hesitant to simply call it the wrong way to use a word.
One word having two meanings is a PITA when trying to accurately and unambiguously describe something. The same meaning should still hold when using it comparatively, i.e. an MD2 is more stable than a Wolf, and it's also more stable than a Drone, Wolf is more understable than either, Drone more overstable than either. If you allow "more stable" to mean "more overstable" regardless of the situation, then the whole thing blows up.

And Ryan, talk about stability naturally includes taking into account the distance the disc if thrown (or at least meant to be thrown). You can obviously say that the same disc is overstable, stable or understable depending on the distance. Just please don't make more stable and more overstable mean the same thing.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Ryan C » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:33 am

Its just that I don't think the term overstable has a lot of meaning, unless you also refer to the distance/power in question. I think overstable is far more ambiguous, because as I mentioned earlier, any disc can be understable if thrown hard enough. Another thing that kind of bugs me about the terminology dogma on here, is that lots of pros use the word stability the way I do. If they throw an extremely (over)stable disc, they'll remark on how crazy stable it is. I think the overly pedantic internet forum crew are in the minority, even if they are "right."
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Frank Delicious » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:06 pm

I still use stable to mean overstable b/c I am lazy and it conveys the meaning I want to a lot of people. I don't think I can agree with the idea that overstable is ambiguous as it is pretty clearly defined. Some molds are pretty clearly understable, overstable, and stable (in the true sense) and it behooves us to actually use the words correctly to help clear up confusion between stable and overstable (even if I still misuse it).

Saying any disc could be understable if thrown hard enough has been brought up before on here and it has always seemed like a weird argument that gets too pedantic and theoretically for me. It doesn't really matter if a Z Xtreme would be understable for someone who can throw 2000 yards, that's never gonna happen and it doesn't make any sense talking about it. Overstable is a relative term but so are stable and understable, I can get an understable disc to fly overstable with a little manipulation. That doesn't mean I'm gonna start calling a RR an overstable disc.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Tossin' in Memphis » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:27 pm

zj1002 wrote:The stalker is really nice. It came out better than the buzzz. Its a lot like a QJ and has more HSS than its other counterparts which tended to flip up. It still isn't headwind friendly but it's the best stalker to date. Molded up really well

And I got to watch ZAM 360 it
Music to my ears...can't wait
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Ryan C » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:41 pm

I'm standing by what I said. Since understable, overstable, and stable in the "correct" way of discussion are only relative to power level, I maintain that it makes a lot more sense to just talk about discs as being "very stable" compared to another disc. No one will agree on whether or not Innova's latest speed 14 driver is overstable or understable, since it is all based on how fa you can throw. When I'm discussing disc golf with some of my very talented disc golf playing friends, we are always on the same page when I say a wraith is less stable than a Teebird. I get what you mean when you say an XXX is overstable, but I wont get confused when you say that an XXX is more stable than a Teebird. In fact, that seems a lot more intuitive.

I think all we've really established is the discgolfreview.com approved method, not necessarily the method that 90% of the disc golf playing world uses.
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby JHern » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:58 pm

The language "more stable" as applied to "more straight" goes back to Fred Morrison and Steady Ed Headrick (that was the idea of the ridges on the Wham-O disc). It made sense then, and has been used ever since. I'm not sure when the misuse of the term began, although I wouldn't consider DGCR to be an authority on anything. Overstable means it hyzers left, understable means it turns over right. Of course these depend on the speed, the amount of wobble (OAT), the angle of attack, headwind vs. tailwind, etc., which is why we speak of high speed vs. low speed behaviors.

Some discs are very stable both at very high speeds and very low speeds, I've seen some pros throw a Buzzz ridiculously far (450'+) without flipping one iota, and then finishing perfectly straight...that's as stable as stable gets!
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Booter » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:13 pm

Tossin' in Memphis wrote:
zj1002 wrote: I got to watch ZAM 360 it
Music to my ears...can't wait


fixed

this better have been recorded on video
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Re: Discraft Titanium (now with pics)

Postby Frank Delicious » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:24 pm

stability is only relative to power level when dealing with speed stable discs. A firebird is still really stable for my buddy who throws 450'.
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