The best sidearm driver you can think of.

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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby CatPredator » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:18 am

Mike C wrote:Well why not just fix the OAT? Why is FH exempt from that but BH isn't?


Priorities. It's clear that having both a forehand and backhand is useful at a lot of courses, but between 75%-90% of the top 50 players are still backhand dominant, and there are just a few elite pro forehanders that actually throw understable plastic off the tee.

Mike C wrote:I wonder how much of it is inherent to FH and how much is people simply unwilling to practice the fundamentals.


Little of both. The limiting factors are time and determination. Most people looking for advice normally just play rec rounds and want to beat up on their friends a bit. If you're actually going to practice off the course (or on the course by yourself during off hours), most people would probably target BH distance, then putting, then backhand upshots, then perhaps FH, rollers, thumbers, etc...

It's hard to make progress on all of those areas at once unless you have a couple hours a day to dedicate to disc.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby jubuttib » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:49 am

Many forehanders can throw a damn sight faster than backhanders, but still lose in distance to them. Ville Piippo for example easily had around 12 mph on the BH throwers in a distance competition, but still lost to them by 60'. This seems to suggest a lack of spin, and I doubt any FH thrower can totally overcome this handicap.

And I'm not saying that the difference is huge, especially at the top level, but it's large enough to give an edge to BH throwers.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby JR » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:15 pm

Fightingthetide wrote:We still don't know how far the OP can throw FH. I just browsed through these three pages, and I couldn't help but wonder if we were misleading him (assuming his D isn't past 300' on FH). IMO, an Eagle-x or something in that speed range is going to be the best to learn correct form. It's still stable enough to handle some OAT, but it's not like throwing an Ape/Destroyer/etc with a stupid amount of OAT and never knowing it. You gotta learn somehow. Slow, less stable discs are what will improve your game.

On a 200' hole at a local course, I saw a guy throw a champ 11/12 speed driver on forehand. It was flying through the air like a dying duck, did a big s-curve through the woods, and then smashed into the chains for an ace. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I personally wouldn't count that as an ace. I also didn't have the heart to tell him that he needed to use a putter on that shot next time. I guess I'm just surprised that the "best" forum for disc golf is suggesting very overstable plastic for a thrower who might or might not have good form or distance.


Actually for a sub 300' thrower a new Eagle X would not be a good training tool because it's too HSS. It will mask a lot of OAT. A Leopard would better training tool for them in other plastics as DX. Break in a DX and you are likely to get a frustrated thrower that may drop FH altogether.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby JR » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:18 pm

jubuttib wrote:Many forehanders can throw a damn sight faster than backhanders, but still lose in distance to them. Ville Piippo for example easily had around 12 mph on the BH throwers in a distance competition, but still lost to them by 60'. This seems to suggest a lack of spin, and I doubt any FH thrower can totally overcome this handicap.

And I'm not saying that the difference is huge, especially at the top level, but it's large enough to give an edge to BH throwers.


Ville said to me that it's hard to get enough height on FH to compete in max D so that is why he doesn't want to go to Big D. Nose angles matter too. Interestingly he thought that riding the wind for best results come by annying from the start. I'm no forehander so i can't say from experience if that is a difference between FH and BH or his lack of knowledge on back door late lifts of the disc like Sandström had in his world record throw.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby Flick4D » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:14 pm

jubuttib wrote:Many forehanders can throw a damn sight faster than backhanders, but still lose in distance to them. Ville Piippo for example easily had around 12 mph on the BH throwers in a distance competition, but still lost to them by 60'. This seems to suggest a lack of spin, and I doubt any FH thrower can totally overcome this handicap.

And I'm not saying that the difference is huge, especially at the top level, but it's large enough to give an edge to BH throwers.


As far as MPH goes, I've participated in the MPH contest at the Vibram Open (throwing forehand, which is my strength) and watched everyone else throw backhand, including some 360's. It was with a lid, which was frustrating, esp. forehand, but I threw the shit out of that thing like I would in a distance contest, and it topped out at 70mph. It sure felt like the equivalent of my longest FH throws, which have been up to 517'. The fastest backhand throwers were in the mid to upper 70's, with Avery around 79 I think, with a 360, to win. I'd be interested to see the difference with discs, but until I see otherwise, the fastest backhand throws seem to have a pretty decent edge in speed over forehand. The radar gun was pretty touchy, but there were definitely enough consistent readings to provide some data.

There doesn't seem to be even a slight chance of beating the farthest throwing backhanders in the world with a forehand, height or no height.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby jubuttib » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:33 pm

Point wasn't that FH gives faster disc speeds than BH, but that BH flies just as long/farther even with less speed. Nice info anyway, thanks. =)
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby jbl » Thu Jan 12, 2012 12:24 pm

Ok, I need to clarify some stuff.

Basically I want to learn how to throw sidearm for my main drive in an open fairway and anhyzer shots. I also want to have a clean backhand for hyzer shots. I have a pretty steady backhand as it is, and I can throw about 350' if the drive is right. I have been tweaking it, though, so that I am using less and less power from the arm and gaining more power from the body. So it gets wacky from time to time. I'm still fine tuning it but I am getting more distance as time goes on.

But as far as my sidearm, I am realizing that you can generate some obscene distances with it. Not only that, but I feel like it comes easier to me.

I am willing to put in the work to get down this shot, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated. For example, is there a certain disc I should practice with in order to generate proper technique? Any discers I should check out to get an idea of what I am going for?
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby Spinthrift » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:09 pm

If your goal is a consistent, clean and versatile forehand, consider some discs other than the vast majority of what's mentioned above. The best sidearmers I know (including ~1000 rated) rely on as many understable discs as beefy ones. Being able to flick beat Rocs, seasoned Leopards and thrashed Wraiths opens lines a Drone, Firebird, Destroyer or Nuke can't even dream about. My most-used sidearm driver is an aged 150 Champ Sidewinder. And if your form is good enough to flick a Comet, beat Roc or sweet-spot Roadrunner, you can sidearm anything.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby Mark Ellis » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:21 pm

The best forehand driver I can think of?

Well I can think of a lot. How about a Nuke actually powered by nuclear energy and remote controlled?

If the question is limited to discs currently in existence, then the Nuke, of course. If anything is faster than a Nuke then I have never thrown it.


jbl wrote:Ok, I need to clarify some stuff.

Basically I want to learn how to throw sidearm for my main drive in an open fairway and anhyzer shots. I also want to have a clean backhand for hyzer shots. I have a pretty steady backhand as it is, and I can throw about 350' if the drive is right. I have been tweaking it, though, so that I am using less and less power from the arm and gaining more power from the body. So it gets wacky from time to time. I'm still fine tuning it but I am getting more distance as time goes on.

But as far as my sidearm, I am realizing that you can generate some obscene distances with it. Not only that, but I feel like it comes easier to me.

I am willing to put in the work to get down this shot, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated. For example, is there a certain disc I should practice with in order to generate proper technique? Any discers I should check out to get an idea of what I am going for?


Having both backhand and forehand is good. Having both with power and control is best. The way to achieve that is dedicated, consistent practice over time, being willing to continually modify your technique as needed and seek the advice of others.

You should throw every disc in your bag forehand and try out any new disc which seems promising. You should try every line possible but most importantly seek to be able to throw flat and straight. The disc which will help you with this task the most is one which is dead stable (goes straightest) for you in each of the basic categories (putter, mid and driver).

The margin of error is smaller for forehand than backhand so expect a slower learning curve for forehands (and spectacular screw ups when they occur). Because it is more difficult to obtain does not mean that forehand competency is less useful. It may be that you are forehand dominant and your greatest potential lies that way.

If you can find a player in your area who has an excellent forehand then watch closely and try copying that style. There are many different styles, though and eventually you will need to find your own.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby Fightingthetide » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:07 pm

JR wrote:
Fightingthetide wrote:We still don't know how far the OP can throw FH. I just browsed through these three pages, and I couldn't help but wonder if we were misleading him (assuming his D isn't past 300' on FH). IMO, an Eagle-x or something in that speed range is going to be the best to learn correct form. It's still stable enough to handle some OAT, but it's not like throwing an Ape/Destroyer/etc with a stupid amount of OAT and never knowing it. You gotta learn somehow. Slow, less stable discs are what will improve your game.

On a 200' hole at a local course, I saw a guy throw a champ 11/12 speed driver on forehand. It was flying through the air like a dying duck, did a big s-curve through the woods, and then smashed into the chains for an ace. I didn't have the heart to tell him that I personally wouldn't count that as an ace. I also didn't have the heart to tell him that he needed to use a putter on that shot next time. I guess I'm just surprised that the "best" forum for disc golf is suggesting very overstable plastic for a thrower who might or might not have good form or distance.


Actually for a sub 300' thrower a new Eagle X would not be a good training tool because it's too HSS. It will mask a lot of OAT. A Leopard would better training tool for them in other plastics as DX. Break in a DX and you are likely to get a frustrated thrower that may drop FH altogether.


Good point. I should have clarified - find a beat-in 166-168 Star Eagle-x and use that. I have one in my bag and it's money around 300'. I also throw a few 166 DX Eagle-x's and get great results out to that distance. Premium EX's are too HSS, agreed. Anyway, I was trying to get the point across that warp-speed stuff isn't the way to go, especially if you are trying to develop a shot and improve beyond 300' or even past 350'. The distance potential isn't worth the loss of accuracy IMO.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby Mike C » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:45 pm

jbl wrote:Basically I want to learn how to throw sidearm for my main drive in an open fairway and anhyzer shots. I also want to have a clean backhand for hyzer shots. I have a pretty steady backhand as it is, and I can throw about 350' if the drive is right. I have been tweaking it, though, so that I am using less and less power from the arm and gaining more power from the body. So it gets wacky from time to time. I'm still fine tuning it but I am getting more distance as time goes on.

But as far as my sidearm, I am realizing that you can generate some obscene distances with it. Not only that, but I feel like it comes easier to me.

I am willing to put in the work to get down this shot, so any suggestions are greatly appreciated. For example, is there a certain disc I should practice with in order to generate proper technique? Any discers I should check out to get an idea of what I am going for?


Most of the discs recommend here would be horrible to learn FH with if that's where you're at.

If you're looking for learn how to FH I'd suggest neutral putters and mids. Why? They will tell you when you fuck up. If you start with drivers you might be releasing with a lot of off axis torque but they might cover it up. Pick discs that you know you can make fly straight with a backhand throw....stuff like a Wizard/Aviar/Ion, Axis/Roc/Buzz, Teebird/TL/JLS. Then try to forehand it. If it turns over, you've got OAT.

I have been playing forehand putter rounds lately and it's a very quick way to clean up your form. I would recommend taking this route if int he future you want to be able to shape FH lines, have a clean OAT free release, and be able to throw any disc you want forehand. The top FH players out there use a wide variety of discs, not just Firebirds/Xcals/Bosses etc. Any disc you can backhand, you can forehand as well. There is no such thing as a forehand driver or a backhand driver.

One of my favorite FH players to watch right now is Jeremy Koling. He's just absurdly smooth.

Pretty much everything recommended in this thread will be just be a quick fix for an OATy speed based FH that will not be versatile anytime soon. Imagine what your backhand throw would look like if the only disc you ever threw was a Firebird. Sounds ridiculous when you think of it that way doesn't it? (Bear in mind I'm no expert, I just see no reason to apply most of the ideas involved in developing a clean BH to FH too, because it's been working great for me).
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby jbl » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:52 pm

Looks like I'm going to be putting my Roc/Buzz/Dart/TeeBird to use!

Awesome replies, guys. Especially Mike C. Watched some of your vids. You're definitely better than I am.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby Frank Delicious » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:55 pm

I learned how to FH things besides firebirds with a buzzz. Really liked it for learning good FH form. It's pretty nose angle and torque sensitive and shallow so it is easier to get use to gripping something besides a driver. It isn't the greatest line shaper as it likes to kinda lock onto lines but at the same time it will let you learn how to throw laser straight forehands. From there you can always add a line shaping mid to the bag like a roc or wasp or something.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby Mike C » Thu Jan 12, 2012 3:57 pm

Yeah the Buzz is one of the more comfortable mids to FH.
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Re: The best sidearm driver you can think of.

Postby jubuttib » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:04 pm

How's the Axis working for you on FHs Mike? Would you recommend that as a learning disc? =)
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