MVP Anode - AKA where's our driver? Seriously!

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Re: MVP Anode

Postby zj1002 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:52 pm

Jeronimo wrote:This is DGR, we know the whole "archer vs arrow" argument. We also know the difference between disc X and disc Y. Throwing straight is subjective, straight discs are not as subjective. A Teebird has a straighter flight, over a variation of rotational speeds, as compared to most other discs. We're talking about straightness of disc, not thrower ability to adjust for disc over/under stability.


the king of posting completely useless comments is telling me I should know better.

Neutral stability is a much better term than "straight". In the context that the original poster used "straight" he was making it sound like the gyro technology makes a disc straighter. It does not, it simply allows the disc to spin on the initial launch point easier. Discs fall into three main categories: Overstable, Stable, and Understable. A stable disc is not a "straight" disc just because it has gyro technology.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby jubuttib » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:03 pm

It's better really to avoid overstable and understable too unless the case is clear cut. One problem area are discs that do turn pretty easily but still have a very hefty fade, which aren't really understable, but certainly not overstable or stable either. HSS and LSS are great terms.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby discspeed » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:21 pm

kern9787 wrote:
discspeed wrote:Chad mentioned that his proto likes to hang in the air a little longer than an Ion as well as fading less.


Any word on HSS of it?


I've got the impression that the Anode is going to be fairly high speed stable...Chad reiterated to me that it is not going to be understable so much as neutral. As Mike C said, it will be to the Ion what the Axis is to the Vector.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby kern9787 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:40 pm

Hmmm... I may actually have an interest in this now...
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby discspeed » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:53 pm

I just got a little more info from Chad...The Anode is going to have a rounded nose like the Ion that transitions into a flat bevel straight to the bottom of the disc. It sounds like a more aerodynamic Aviar P&A/Warlock style profile with the inside feel of the Ion.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby Timko » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:13 pm

As long as I can turn it over in my hand and make it fly right to the ground I'll be happy. I have 1 Wizard left in my bag because the Ion just can't fly that line.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby dgdave » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:18 pm

Those last couple posts from discspeed got me wanting this
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby jubuttib » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:26 pm

So something along the lines of old IONs? Sounds nice, but of limited use to me since I have plenty of the old ones, and they don't wear in.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby new013 » Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:27 am

Timko wrote:As long as I can turn it over in my hand and make it fly right to the ground I'll be happy. I have 1 Wizard left in my bag because the Ion just can't fly that line.


I was actually flirting with the idea of putting a Wizard back in my bag for that very same reason.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby JHern » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:22 am

"The Anode is our new beadless putter. It has less fade on putts, yet is stable enough for long straight drives. It is also great for holding long smooth anhyzer lines. The Anode is a straight flyer, making it a great compliment to the stable Ion."


zj1002 wrote:
kern9787 wrote:...Eagle + gyro = a disc for closet teebird fans...All its going to do is make the disc straighter. You lose what makes the eagle an eagle.


throwing the disc straight makes it straighter


The language that MVP uses to describe this disc (and other discs) is one of the root causes of all this misunderstanding. Two things:

1) "Stable" means that the disc holds the right/left tilt angle* through its flight, without tilting further or less (in either direction). Over-stable means that the disc increases its hyzer angle during flight. Under-stable means the the disc decreases its hyzer angle during flight. The most stable disc in the world is the one that holds its hyzer angle, without any change, all the way to the ground (unless the disc stall-fades**). A Buzzz is therefore much more stable than a PD2, Predator, XXX, or Ape. A Buzzz is also much more stable than a Stratus, Sidewinder, etc.. A disc changes stability through flight, according to its air speed and angle of attack***. Blake's flight chart uses high speed stability (HSS) and low speed stability (LSS) to capture the change in stability of the disc as it flies. He doesn't use the change in hyzer angle per second, but uses a subjective relative scale (higher numbers for over-stable behavior, lower numbers for under-stable behavior). Learn to use it, but be aware of the pitfalls of language, and always remember that "most stable" implies Buzzz-like qualities.

2) "Gyro" is not as big a deal as people think, and the way people cast it in some discussions surrounding MVP discs makes it sound like a cheap gimmick. Gyro refers to the gyroscopic stability of an object, what is called angular momentum...this is the product of the spin rate and the moment of inertia. The spin rate is given to the disc at release by the thrower. On the other hand, the moment of inertia is a property of the disc, particularly its shape and how mass is distributed within its volume. The moment of inertia of a disc can only be improved by a few tens of percent, at most, with the most gyroscopically stable form being a weightless flight plate with all the disc mass in the outer-most rim. The Aerobie Ring has a higher moment of inertia than any other possible form of disc of the same outer radius. Increasing the moment of inertia by putting more dense plastic in the rim makes discs thrown with the same spin rate change their hyzer angle of order 10% slower than conventional discs that have equal density plastic (and mass) in the flight plate and rim. The thrower could achieve the same effect with a conventional disc by simply spinning it just a hair faster (so that the product of spin rate and moment of inertia stays the same). In order for the MVP gyro effect to work like envisioned, you also need to assume that a disc with a larger moment of inertia can be thrown with the same spin rate as a disc with smaller moment of inertia...this is probably only partly true, at best. The claim that MVP Gyro will transform an Eagle into a Teebird...that is simply way beyond credibility.

*I simply call this the "hyzer angle." Positive values for hyzer, negative values for anhyzer.
**A stall-fade occurs when the disc is flying nose up and ascending, because it can't continue to climb, it begins to stall out, and will always stall in the hyzer direction.
***The angle which the disc makes relative to the free air stream around it. In still air, a disc tilted up 5 degrees that is flying on a 3 degree upward trajectory has a 2 degree angle of attack.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby discspeed » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:39 am

edited because I'm too tired and my post was even confusing to me... :lol:
Last edited by discspeed on Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby jubuttib » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:56 am

JHern wrote:Increasing the moment of inertia by putting more dense plastic in the rim makes discs thrown with the same spin rate change their hyzer angle of order 10% slower than conventional discs that have equal density plastic (and mass) in the flight plate and rim.
I'll take that 10%, that's huge.
discspeed wrote:Not that I don't have some of the same issues with our sports confusing lingo, but I don't think your way makes any more intuitive sense than accepted usages.
It's the only way that makes any real sense, to me. If you have understable and overstable, then stable is right in the middle, and more stable means more towards the middle.
Last edited by jubuttib on Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby JR » Thu Jan 19, 2012 1:58 am

mafa hung some discs on a nail vertically and measured the swinging and determined how gyroscopic they were IIRC. Ultra-Star was the most gyroscopic edging out putters and mids. so the largest difference would come in a lid. Constructing one is another matter.

Please for the love of pete make putters with grippy plastic in the core. In the rain and cold i prefer my 167 soft X APX which flies pretty similarly to the Ion in putts. Even soft Ions in the summer get too slippery in the rain and cost me 4 strokes in two holes in a competition with the disc slipping. Not acceptable so i got the APX and have soft Vibram stuff enroute for winter to check out. I also have a super soft excessively tacky Warlock that is the grippiest plastic i've ever felt and even that slipped in an approach in the snow being wet. Casual round so i didn't wipe the disc with a towel. Having a dry slippery skin doesn't help and in casual rounds i don't want the extra hassle and in serious throwing i don't want the extra risk of slips. That is why so many top players throw with discs that have some tackiness.

Jhern you can't conjure up 10 % MOIs worth of extra spin in your throw if you already throw with the most spin you generate.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby jubuttib » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:02 am

JR wrote:mafa hung some discs on a nail vertically and measured the swinging and determined how gyroscopic they were IIRC. Ultra-Star was the most gyroscopic edging out putters and mids. so the largest difference would come in a lid. Constructing one is another matter.
That's pretty much just due to size. Larger diameter = more gyroscopic (in the sense that is used in this conversation).
Parks wrote:If the posts on this forum are any indication, the PD is like a Teebird with sunshine coming out of its butthole so hard that it flies faster.
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Re: MVP Anode

Postby JR » Thu Jan 19, 2012 2:12 am

That probably plays a part but without research i wouldn't draw conclusions about the role of having a tall thin wing with a large percentage of the material of the disc at the very outside edge. That should play a role too. Using a high specific gravity material there would magnify the effect.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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