Need a Tunnel Mid

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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby Flipflat » Sun Dec 01, 2013 10:06 am

JR, you're such a sucker for trolls
I would like your X-Wasps, please.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:40 pm

JR wrote:It sems that you are not versed in the scientific process seeing as you claim that popularity is a measure of how a disc or a mold behaves. Even that fallacy supports the superiority of the Buzz over many note not necessarily all the molds. Why? Is the Buzz not the best selling disc for years in a row? A scientist would know that is not valid proof of the real quality of the disc that does not need repeating. But a big but. You are too eager to replace the Buzz with two or more molds if you were to debate the merits of a mold you should compare it to one mold not two. Name any one mold and it is likely to get a superior mix of two or more molds of the same roles mentioned that together give better results. Not an apples to oranges comparison so not real. Remember my last post where i preferred two to three molds for mid duty?

Do not sell Mark out short. Or me for that matter. Unlike him i am notvsponsored and am a mixed bag thrower. And while Mark uses DC exclusively it does not mean any changes to the flight characteristics of the Buzz.

You were selling me short too in claiming thatci had a need to prove that the Buzz is superior. That is inaccurate and the proof is in my previous post so you should reread the part about the merits of the disc and the competition determining which is the best disc. Had you accepted that your claims should have been different. You further devalue my thinking by claiming i believe hype. Is it really so that you do not understand that my observations are my own based on the flights of different Buzzes and most of the competition? Bah but do your misconceptions really make me that dumb? Was Shakespeare wrong to ridicule a fictionary king when he described the king getting his feet wet after commanding tve tide to not rise because he was the king of England? Am i really that stupid in your opinion. Why? Where is the proof?

Fair enough about bringing other competiton for proof. MD2 comes from Innova. There are no really understable versions available when new like the Buzz. The difference is that there are no really tacky MD2s and the differences between the types of MD2s are way larger than with Buzzes. No mildly os MD2out of the box i am afraid. So yes if you use th MD2 you will need complementary discs more than you would do with the Buzz or manipulate the flight more meaning larger chances of error in shot planning. I use this route with the Buzz and pay because manipulation is not as effective as having slightly differing discs. Because i minimize the mass i am hauling around. Because i am not in good enough shape. Ymmv. Domey MD2s are slghtly us and flat ones are os at 200' and moderately os at 300' where is the straight at 300' MD2? If a new d MD2 pulls it of great. No experience with them. The the MD2 would tie the Buzz if there would be a tacky version. Imo the MD2 is better than the Roc.


Speaking of "scientific", you made a very rudimentary scientific error in saying not one of those other midranges outsells the Buzzz, in an attempt to reinforce your argument that the Buzzz is the best. Cumulatively they do, by a long shot. That should tell you all you need to know. But I'll try and make it simple for you. You have 'x' number of players on a course, with 'y' number of midrange discs in each of their bags. If the Buzzz is outnumbered, say, 5 to 1, you have a very definitive negative answer to your claim of the Buzz being more popular and outselling all others, especially if we use your own criterion of needing only a Buzzz in various plastics/stages of wear to cover the stability spectrum and all shots. Comprende?

Again, trying to prove the Buzzz superior to any other midrange is a fools errand. For one, it is highly subjective, and not "scientific" in the least. Also, there are too many other midrange discs very close in design and stability to the Buzzz. Take your pick.

Later...
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:29 pm

Flipflat wrote:JR, you're such a sucker for trolls


Nah i just love to show what kind of errors people make. Like Bent cannot count. He needs to for some reason (my guess is making a conclusion based on feeling not making a fact based step by step research from facts to conclusions and not being
able to handle the inkling feeling that something in his reasoning is off after being confronted then resorting to trying to fool himself because i am not that his initial assumption of the gut feel is correct by adding another layer of lies on top of the first ones and so on and so forth because it is a psychological need for humans to have an inner logic and consistency in the world view so if youenocunter contrary evidence you are in distress and there are three normal ways of not learning in basic defense mechanisms that all are lies just the type varies how is this for a mouthful?) "prove" that after being pointed out that popularity is not proof that the best selling disc (to my knowedge) the Buzz is inferior in his claims despite first trying to prove the opposite by claiming the best selling disc must be the best disc (ahem Buzz) and after being pointed out tht the Buzz is the best selling disc in all of disc golf then he needed for some reason to change his "proof" that count all the other disc molds and discs in those in the bags of players and they are more numerous than Buzzes. Is the need to count all others together against the Buzzes alone a proof in his popularity "proof" a proof of the superiority of the Buzz in his reasoning? Contradictions arise from changing lies. So a level playing field is not to his liking because he needs to be "right" in his mind and to get there he is willing to go any lengths to not learn from his mistakes because in his mind it is ok to lie to not "lose". Lose by learning how things are. Resitsing reality and learning keeps one in a state of arrested development opening up room to fail to understand and act according according to reality over and over again in the future.

So i have a motive in resisting foolish behavior and it is exposing it at tleast to those savvy enough to notice it. Why? It is too late to stop your executuion at the hands of fools once the bullets fly. So prevention is the cure and the fewer fuck up the better the world is and the higher the chance of not eveyrone suffering is . The history of mankind is a list of crimes, follies and idiocy etc. and now that there are more scientists available alive than there have been in the history combined and more and more accurate information available and more destructive weapons around with leaders acting like in the old days without knowledge and less shared history and wisdom the chances of blowing up the planet goes up. Something needs to change and any fool can push the button so collective wisdom needs to be improved and behavior of everyone improved. 7 billion wise can be wiped out by one fool after all and the tools of annihilation spread and get more effective. Leadership among politicians does not seem to. Dilemma. It takes a whole village to raise children. So i am fairly meta in my responses to trolls and other types of underdeveloped minds. As if everyone does not fit that category but i mean the worst cases.

People trying to claim black is white need to show proof or otherwise prepare to get resistance. Failure of good peaople resisting bad ones hurts everybody all the time. Wars and hard times are going on right now and there is less and less excuses available to allowing that because everyone in western countries at least has received enough info to not claim not understanding that it is wrong and their tolerance to such shit is less ok than that of clueless peple that do not know any better. So it is better to fight ingonorance before the lies on top of lies leads to genocide and even lesser evils. History of mankind has showed time and again how assholes lying their arses off have caused mass deaths in the millions and making lives unnecassarily hard for even more. Stupid and i vote not to accept cockmouthedness from homo Hitlers up everyone's asses. Anarchy up their asses until they learn or jail is my answer to fuckfaces. Fuck the terrorists. Fuck the assholes. Fuck the stupid. Eradicate the worst levels of stupidity by making people learn and answering for their fuck ups might help human kind from not blowing themselves up during our generation or later. Like akmost happened in 1962 when three Soviet submarine captains agreed that their written orders state that given the situation they were in their orders were to sink a US Destroyer in the blockade of Cuba. Which in turn means an act of war and the Soviets knew that Kennedy had said publicly that any attack on US forces will be met with nuclear retaliation. Which the captains had agreed that meant that in order to have any chance of survival of the Soviet people in places means that they have to not only sink that destroyer stopping the escorted merchant vessel from reaching Cuba but also try to wipe out US nuclear counter attack capability. Which meant launching nukes at the US. They did not have missiles with long enough range to reach all of US or Europe and Turkey where US land based missiles were in range of the SU not to mention airplanes over the poles and subs. So the captains decided that their headquarters do not have a clue and that it is pointless to attack when both sides are gonna die and many outsiders too possibly all of the planet.

So the captains risked an immediate death penalty by refusing to start a nuclear war. The hotline between the White House and the Kremlin was put in place after this event because there were no official channels to defuse the situation. And only one back channel was found out and it was used and death of human kind was averted at a too late moment in time. Why make the same end of life threatening mistakes again that esult from the same root cause stupidity? Where is the benefit to that that outweighs the survival of the species and many other species as well. Who are we that like to think that we have the right to decide upon the survival of the other species? With what right and wisdom?

Playing the lying game (stupidity) is playing with too high stakes higher than we can understand and are entitled to. Hundreds of years ago it was said that do you know with what little information the world is lead? The same goes now. Each law proposal is obfuscated with too much to read by the senators and congressmen. So they pass laws that they do not understand or have the time to research. Is that wise counsel per Roman times when IRC Pliny the leder or was it Cicero said that armies abroad are of little use if there is not prudent counsil at home? Tolerating fuck facedness is hating the human kind and your kids. Who in their right mind raises their children to not be able to handle life and being liars thus harm doers to genocidal maniacs? Haters and idiots. history has already showed what happens when haters, idiots and murderers run states. One example of those many available that held those attributes was called Nazi Germany and what happened? Genocide and dozens of millions of dead and uncounted suffering world wide. It is a choice to either let it happen on and on once more and more in the future or act against it. The fruits of stupidity. Where do you stand?

So i am calling many actions and omissions of acknowledging pointed out facts by Bents stupid. Stupid is as stupid does no apologies it is just the rude facts of life. Nothing personal i do not mean to cause pain out of malice. I am just calling black black. It is unpopular and to that the reply is always fuck the masses of stupids. For above reasons and many others. Know your enemy means that there are many other reasons to resist stupidity than i listed above. Get smart or die is the option for mankind. Fuckers please die now. I hope that Bents does not develop into one or god firbid is one already. Who needs more Hitlers? One could call this an intervention.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:17 pm

JR, it's becoming painfully obvious that basic logic elludes you. Your mini novel above is convoluted and disjointed, and a bit scary, while just digging the hole deeper. Why do you need so many words and sentences to describe the "truth"? Is it because it's your truth, and you have to convince yourself over and over?

I'm going to make it "really really" simple for you: anybody(and everybody) who doesn't have a Buzzz in their bag obviously doesn't believe it's the undisputed "best" midrange. The Buzzz may be the single most best selling mid, a feat made easier by offering it in 6 plastics, but a sizeable majority of disc golfers choose other midrange discs besides the Buzzz. There's your "proof"...and it should be self evident, even to you.

But, I'm not optimistic. After all, was it also not you who argued in several posts that your Pro Beast held up for 2 years on a rock and glass covered course without so much as a mark on it, while your Opto discs were destroyed under the same conditions? A very curious claim just to try and prove your love for the Pro Beast. I should have taken that fodder more seriously at the time.

And I also find it amusing that despite your rabid defense of the Buzzz as the "best", you seem to try out and throw a lot of other midrange molds. Gee...why is that?

BTW, do you know who it was who helped defend Finland during the 'continuation war' with Russia in 1941, and continued to do so until late 1944? He was a strong supporter of Finnish independance and Mannerheim.

I don't believe there are any new Hitlers lurking on this site, but if there are, I'm sure you'll be the first to know!

Anyway, take care...of yourself.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby maskedavenger » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:22 am

Clicked on this thread to see if there's some good advice, as I currently like to throw beat fw drivers for tunnel shots (for some reason I am not a mid guy, other than for approaches)... and somehow I walked into a nerd fight about Hitler and the winter war??

Cmon guys whoever shuts up first wins.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:11 am

maskedavenger wrote:Clicked on this thread to see if there's some good advice, as I currently like to throw beat fw drivers for tunnel shots (for some reason I am not a mid guy, other than for approaches)... and somehow I walked into a nerd fight about Hitler and the winter war??

Cmon guys whoever shuts up first wins.


I do respectfully disagree with that too because it is plain wrong. As much as Bents was. And theanswer to Bents is Franklin Delano Roosevelt. suckl that. Thank yous go to him for his realism in opposing communist invasions by emptying an US aircraft carrier of its fighters and selling them to Finland that was at the time under unprovoked attack by the Soviet Union. Of course the 44 Brewsters Buffalos arrived after the winter war but in round two they were responsible for shooting down hundreds of Soviet planes. Some of which were made in USA like Aircobras, Kincobras, Lightnings and P51s. Fuck that very much and they were using US fuel and lubrication often too and i suspect US ammo as well.

Finland was setting a thief to catch a thief in letting the Nazis and Soviets duke it out just as the US and the other western allies were. Who in their right minds would weep over the Soviet Union and nazi Germany killing each other off? Sure there were some pro German guys even before the winter war here but they were a minority and the numbers grew a little for a while after the winter war since the western aid came too late to help and the Germans stopped continued Soviet pressure in 1940 during the peace between the winter war and the continuation war that started in 1941. After news of German war crimes and concentration camps and seeing Germans in person spread illusions vanished quickly. Finnish army leader and later president Mannerheim always loathed the Germans after having commanded a Russian cavalry corps against them in WW1.

How is this for facts? Hitler was such a strong proponent of Finnish independence that he drafted the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in which Eastern europe was divided between the SU and Germany and Finland was in the Soviet domain after which the Soviets started the winter war. And again in September 1944 Finland was in a war against Germany and the Germans killed 3000 Finnish soldiers in battle and burned most of Northern Finland. It is undeniable that Finland did not have enough food, weapons and firepower or reserves to survive against the SU and even with Germans fighting the Soviets it was by the thinnest of margin that Finnish defence did not collapse. So that is one of the few postives of the otherwise reign of terror of the nazis.

So about nazism. What does current US government have in common with the nazis? Imprisonment without trials. People disapearing. Waging illegal wars according to international war. Abuse of prisoners. Mass killings of civilians although GErmans were in their own level. Torture. Totalitarism in some areas. Need i go on? What kind of a picture does it about the US that G. W. Bush became president for the second time after getting the second most votes? So banana republic citizen what do you think of that? The rest of the world laughs at you for that. The US is up to its ears in debt to foreign nations mostly to China after being the leading power in the world in your lifetime. Hmm. How does that feel? Must not be nice.

Bents i do not know how old you are but i suggest educating yourself some more preferably with researcher studies=higher education degree because your arguments are heinously thin in proving power. You need to learn more about scientific research methods for your own benefit. Good luck.

That darned Beast got sliced the very next round after having lasted for three years on that glass strewn course just my luck grr. Well it was a great run anyway seeing as the other end of the spectrum was a Z pred getting sliced on the same drive in the first round.

MAskedavenger i have presented my piece and so i grant you your wish regardless of how much there would be to correct. People need to learn for themselves and force feeding ain't gonna work many times. As if i had the need to make Bents see the light. There will be lots of those that fall through the cracks when it comes to recognizing their elbow from their heel. What could i do? Life is too sort to help everyone. First of all motivation would be needed so it is not like i would waste an infinite amount of time to try to teach him. After seeing how facts elude him i was much more motivated by the meta in this case illuminating dangerous mistakes in thought processes for the benefit of others than Bents than getting him to join the ranks of responsible citizens. That decisions and motivation and understanding of why that is useful and god needs to come from him it cannot be shoved down his throat or he will never be good enough in applying the skills that go into being a good person in the face of inevitable difficulties that life throws in everyones faces.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby PMantle » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:13 am

JHern wrote:The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and finish straight if you throw it flat and pure, like Mark Ellis was saying.

The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and fade at the end if you throw slightly nose up.

Pretty much every player I know carries a Buzzz. None of them finish straight. These are not nose up throws.

On another note....
We have 4 new tunnels with the addition of a new 18. Finishing left is pretty much disaster for all of them. So far, Meteor and believe it or not, Underworld are turning out to be very good in there.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:23 am

JR, learn your history...especially regarding your own country. The August 1939 pact between Germany and Russia designated Finland as a "Russian sphere of interest". It did NOT include tacit German approval for Russia to invade Finland. On the contrary! The Germans had a strong motive to defend Finland from Russian aggression because if Finland fell to the Russians, neutral Sweden would be threatened, and Germany obtained the vast majority of it's iron ore from Sweden. Without it, Germany would not be able to continue the war even at that early stage.

Finland did NOT sit by and "let the Germans and Soviets duke it out" as you say. You couldn't be more wrong. Finland was a willing and active partner of Germany after Germany invaded Russia in June 1941. For example: Finnish troops were heavily involved in the encirclement and siege of Leningrad. Finnish and German troops conducted offensive measures against Russia in Lapland. Finnish troops were engaged in an offensive war against Russia on the Northern Eastern front, alongside their German allies. They had a common enemy in Russia, Russia had invaded Finland in 1939 after all! Finland only turned on Germany and German troops on Finnish soil after the Germans were retreating along the entire Eastern front and Russia demanded that Finland oust the Germans, who naturally resisted. It's called treachery, and it was done for reasons of expediency. When the going gets rough and the writing's on the wall, turn on your former ally. Not a shining moment in Finland's history. At that point they had little choice however. And Finland wasn't the only country to do this...also Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, and Hungary to name a few.

As for the Germans scorched earth policy in Northern Finland during their retreat, most armies did that if they had no prospects of reclaiming the territory, in order to deny the enemy any useful facilities and material to slow their advance. The Germans had added incentive, since their Finnish "ally" suddenly switched sides and began attacking them. What do you expect in that situation, niceties from the Germans? The Russians conducted scorched earth in their own country!...the Ukraine(food source) and Caucasus(oil). And the British did it in North Africa and the Pacific theater. So, since Finland had committed treachery against Germany during Germany's weakest hour along the Eastern front in late 1944, including its army turning on and attacking German soldiers, why would Germany continue to respect Finnish territory? The war with Russia was a war of annihilation and a matter of survival as a nation for the Germans...and the Finns until they sold out to the Russians.

I won't even comment on your Bush 2nd in votes, US is a "banana republic" drivel, except to say that you are ignorant in that regard too. US presidential elections are decided by the "Electoral" vote, not the popular vote. The electoral vote law in the US dates back to 1787. You may find it odd, but the reason is to prevent a small number of states, that have a much higher concentration of population, from determining the outcome for the rest of the country, or the majority of states.

You are proving the old proverb that a little knowledge is even more dangerous than ignorance. You tend to choose certain facts, completely twist them to fit your weak argument(s), and then present that butchered version as "truth" while attacking any opposing view which is based on fact and truth. Let some light into that black hole mind of yours, you'll be much better off.

Anyway, back to straight midrange for tunnel shots...still best to choose a mid with no fade, IMO. And there are several to choose from, including the Buzzz SS if you must throw a 'Buzzz'. There was a promotional video of Nate Doss throwing the new Titanium Buzzz when it first came out. He was throwing at a basket about 250 ft away, the camera view was directly behind him. He threw about 8 shots with the Ti Buzzz and none of them were particulary straight, with most naturally fading out at the end, unless he turned them over slightly. Watch the video. Of course, then Buzzz fanatics will claim "that's because it was a Ti Buzzz."
Last edited by BentElbow11 on Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:16 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby GreenMeanie » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:15 am

You can't beat a BUZZZ.
Just wear one in to be flippy have a new one for over stable shots.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:02 pm

PMantle wrote:
JHern wrote:The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and finish straight if you throw it flat and pure, like Mark Ellis was saying.

The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and fade at the end if you throw slightly nose up.

Pretty much every player I know carries a Buzzz. None of them finish straight. These are not nose up throws.

On another note....
We have 4 new tunnels with the addition of a new 18. Finishing left is pretty much disaster for all of them. So far, Meteor and believe it or not, Underworld are turning out to be very good in there.


"Pretty much every player I know carries a Buzzz. None of them finish straight. These are not nose up throws."

That's because none of them are throwing it right. :wink:
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:10 pm

maskedavenger wrote:Clicked on this thread to see if there's some good advice, as I currently like to throw beat fw drivers for tunnel shots (for some reason I am not a mid guy, other than for approaches)... and somehow I walked into a nerd fight about Hitler and the winter war??

Cmon guys whoever shuts up first wins.


I sometimes throw a champ Leopard or Diamond for tunnel shots that require a little more distance than a mid can provide. Flat-topped champ Leopards perform very well in that role. And the Diamond in higher 150's weights can be very straight and controllable at less than 100% power using just decent snap.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby PMantle » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:14 pm

Yup to the Champ Leo, but I throw it on a hole where a little left finish is really good. Are Star Leos less stable?
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:39 pm

PMantle wrote:Yup to the Champ Leo, but I throw it on a hole where a little left finish is really good. Are Star Leos less stable?


DX and Pro Leopards are the least stable, but flat-topped champs are very straight fliers, start to finish. I've never thrown a Star Leopard.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:31 pm

PMantle wrote:
JHern wrote:The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and finish straight if you throw it flat and pure, like Mark Ellis was saying.

The Buzzz will fly arrow straight and fade at the end if you throw slightly nose up.

Pretty much every player I know carries a Buzzz. None of them finish straight. These are not nose up throws.

On another note....
We have 4 new tunnels with the addition of a new 18. Finishing left is pretty much disaster for all of them. So far, Meteor and believe it or not, Underworld are turning out to be very good in there.


BTW, my X Buzzz used to do mini S curves under power. It was also great for flex shots because of its excellent glide. It eventually got too beat up and I moved on, first to a sweet flat-topped pearly light blue Z Buzzz. But after trying the MVP Axis and Tangent, I was sold. And that's what I carry now, along with an Anode for shorter approach. FWIW...
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby PMantle » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:47 pm

I have an Axis. Not enough time with it to say much about it.
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