Need a Tunnel Mid

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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:26 pm

PMantle wrote:I really do want a Buzzz SS. May be too similar to my base plastic Fugitive though.


Buzzz SS is a good disc, very similar to the Fuse but is a little straighter and can handle more power, and also holds up in windy conditions better.

Have you noticed that none of the Buzzz fanboi's ever mention the Buzzz SS? It's like there's some strange disdain for it from Buzzz throwers. IMO, it just further reinforces this screwy notion that the Buzzz can do anything, and do it better than all others. All you need is a Buzzz! Yeh, right.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Stringbean wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:
Stringbean wrote:Don't expect to get a straight flight out of the new QMS though. The Rancho mold has a much stronger fade than the OOP Ontario mold.


Yes, I've heard that. These are the sparkle QMS with the new stamp, right? Too bad...


Yep, it's not a bad disc, just not the same. Perhaps it will beat into what the old one was but its going to take awhile.


Good old Innova, messing with great molds.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:39 pm

Pmantle: Ask 'discmonkey', since he's a big fan of the Tangent, if he prefers the Buzzz over the Tangent for straight tunnel shots w/no fade. It might be interesting...to see what form of backpedaling takes place.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby PMantle » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:19 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:Have you noticed that none of the Buzzz fanboi's ever mention the Buzzz SS? It's like there's some strange disdain for it from Buzzz throwers. IMO, it just further reinforces this screwy notion that the Buzzz can do anything, and do it better than all others. All you need is a Buzzz! Yeh, right.
Newb disc-they no like.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby PMantle » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:20 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:Pmantle: Ask 'discmonkey', since he's a big fan of the Tangent, if he prefers the Buzzz over the Tangent for straight tunnel shots w/no fade. It might be interesting...to see what form of backpedaling takes place.

Nope-dude's disliked me from day 1 on this forum. I ask him no questions.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:13 pm

Oh, okay that explains it. Start questioning player's skill level to prove a point? Nice...
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby PMantle » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:15 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:Oh, okay that explains it. Start questioning player's skill level to prove a point? Nice...

Very common on these boards. Not seen it in any other area like golf, archery etc. But then again, the disc golf crowd is bizarre as heck. :lol:
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:25 pm

Yeh, there is that fanatical devotion to one mold you see on DG boards. "All you need is a Buzzz!"..."All you need is a Roc!" Uh, maybe what you need is to try some different molds besides the one you received in a beginners pack 10 years ago before dictating to others. Oh well...
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby PMantle » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:46 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:Yeh, there is that fanatical devotion to one mold you see on DG boards. "All you need is a Buzzz!"..."All you need is a Roc!" Uh, maybe what you need is to try some different molds besides the one you received in a beginners pack 10 years ago before dictating to others. Oh well...

Here's my favorite: "You shouldn't be throwing anything faster than a Leopard at this point".
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:43 pm

Yes, how many times have we heard that! Used as a driver, a Leopard is easy to overpower, even for beginners. It makes a great understable fairway driver though, which is what it's best suited for.

As for the learning proper form argument, use anything understable...and it doesn't have to be slow and short. And slowing down and cleaning up form has nothing to do with the disc you're throwing, but rather footwork, timing, and eliminating any OAT that may be present.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby Flipflat » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:00 pm

I would like your X-Wasps, please.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:34 pm

LOL, maybe JR and I should go back to discussing WW2 in this thread.

I'm beginning to develop a profound dislike for the Buzzz that has nothing to do with how it flies. :P
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:41 pm

PMantle: what midrange discs are you throwing(in your bag) currently? You mentioned the Fugitive, how do you like it and what does it compare to? Maybe the Warship? Similar stability rating and the same slightly larger 1.4cm rim width makes me wonder if it isn't a tweaked Warship. Or maybe a Core?

I've been able to whittle it down to a Proton Axis and Proton Tangent, both will hold any line, although the Axis has a small amount of fade where the Tangent has none. No need for an overstable "wind" midrange any more, they both hold up well in windy conditions...for anything but full drives anyway.

I really like Dynamic Discs lineup, they're going about it right. The Renegade is superior to what Lat 64 and Westside have for that slot(Flow and Sword), IMO. If I didn't really like my Opto Saint(s), I'm sure I'd have an Escape in the bag too.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby slowarm » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:52 am

BentElbow11 wrote:LOL, maybe JR and I should go back to discussing WW2 in this thread. :P


No, don't do that. It was very painful to read.
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Re: Need a Tunnel Mid

Postby JR » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:15 am

I am not so sure at all that the Buzz SS gets overlooked. Maybe more on this forum than elsewhere possibly from the first batch flying like regular flat topped Zs. The only reason i have not tried a later Buzz SS is that i have not seen the need for one having thrown other discs beside the Buzz or making do with beefier Buzzes and truly overstable compliments. I do not appreciate the claims that Buzz fanboys use only Buzzes. That is patently incorrect. Trying to defend straw men by putting words in the mouths of others does make things so.

The thing is that it is very very much easier to get the Buzz to shed the fade if you throw with a low arm pull line. Mark Ellis has the advantage there. Look at the Discraft forehand clinic and see how his arm swoops the disc almost down to the ground and releasing very close to the ground. When not going for distance he does not need to throw as high as in those example videos that were meant to show the fade. A backhand thrower throwing from shoulder height has a much harder time of throwing a head high or even lower throw. Why would you do that? How much is a disc going to fade when it is close to the ground? Dropping down from 3-6' happens at a much higher speed than from a 7-25' apex height. Guess which one flies slower in the end and has the height and the time and low speed to sart the fade and continue that. Thus far the ground has been great at eliminating the fade of a navel high or even lower throw. It is the same for any disc but throwing with enough power to make the Buzz go 250' on a 3-5' high line means needing to be able to throw with weight shuift forward and constant pull height and some wrist down and enough power to make drivers go 300'+ preferably 330'. For those that can do all of that and having even more power many discs perform much less HSS than with higher throws. The reason is that the higher throw slows down much earlier to the cruising speed of the disc where it stops turning toward anhyzer. There the very straight finishing discs usually end up in trouble with one notable exception. Which is Rancho Roc DX after some breaking in for those that get consistent clean releases out of them. They are the closest in HSS to the Buzz out of mdis that do not mimic the Buzz flight path. There are plenty of those around these days. What does that say? Everyone cutting into the pie with their own Buzz. Why? Money and because it works. Dscs that fly like some kind of Buzz include suspect, Shark3, Roc and Roc3, Neutron Axis, Warship, Mako(have not thrown the 3 model but would not be surprised if it fit the bill), probably the new QMS which might be better for sea level thrower than originals and vice versa for mountaineers etc.

Hey we've had a very factual conversation via PMs about WW2 history he is unusually well read on the subject among Americans or any nationalities for that matter.

There are boatloads of great mids out there and not everyone has the same skills, power, spin and requirements so everyone should do some market research by throwing many discs with navel high to head high throws and your regular throws. And make judgments for themselves. Good candidates with different capabilites are among others, Buzzes, Neutron Axis, Rocs, Classic Rocs, Makos, Coyotes, Shark3s, i imagine Mako3s, King Cobras and if you throw under 300' or so with drivers the Super Stingray becomes a better option as does the QMS, Warship and Proton Axis. There are more. This site is much about the development of a player into a better one so the long term goals and replacing the quiver with the skill of the shooter has always been a standing recommendation. I don't devate from that recommendation here. Which is why i cannot stress enough about the need of throwing what oyu have npw in a different way if you have not thrown 3-6' with the emphasis of being able to throw more in th 3-5' high range consistenly. It is a useful ability in throwing under branshes as well making many fairway much wider.

The more skills you have the fewer different kinds of discs you need. Since mids do not require that much speed it is a much more feasible proposition to handle even annies with moderately overstable discs which still needs the need to get a super overstable trick/headwind beater disc. Some use FBs/Preds etc. underpowered but their higher speed and skipping is a problem on some approaches so OS mids or OS putter and FB/Pred type of OS FW is a good complement to a straight mid. Straight from the characteristics of the disc or from the advanced capabilities of the disc/player combo like throwing low where the need for added HSS due to speed over the low HSS & low LSS discs that are fine at less than full power for more powerful players in am weather and higher lines or hyzer flipped just right very low. Meaning it is a different skill set to get it right with more moving parts and still susceptibility to wind variations which may be a non issue somewhere but not here by the sea and from what i've heard in the midwest for example. A moerately powerful player can throw putters straight with enough HSS for safety margin as far as some of the straightest mids underpowered to make them consistent in no to mild wind conditions. The best putters driven have more safety margin pushed to say beyond 220' where some of the low LSS & HSS discs start to become susceptible to wind changes. That keeps coming up because i have seen it elsewhere than in my town (Helsinki, see Tali Open videos) too. You are welcome to try the Lauste course in Turku, Finland or Meri-Toppila in Oulu, Finland and you can see the winds in the videos from there. For example on Youtube channel lcgm8 Finnish Open 2010 for Oulu and check out the videos elsewhere on Finnish championships 2011 and European Open The Preliminary 2013 for Lauste. I have seen winds change direction radically four times during the flight of my drive at Lauste in stiff winds. My Champ TB bounced up, down and to both sides a dozen times on a downhill drive at Järva, Stockholm, Sweden once.

Winds and other conditions matter. Security against error sources that you cannot control show in score cards consistently. In order to become the best player you can be you need to find the discs and techniques that work the best for you so that your results drop permanently. Which is why you need to max out your throwing skills and then find the disc combo that works the best for you. That means throwing in different forms and noting which charactarestics of the disc matter the most for you and trying to find the disc that fulfills those needs at least. Hopefully the secondary characteristics too. We live in a great time for disc golf because so many different discs are available and it is very likely that many players find their dream disc on the shelf new out of the box. That has not been the history of this sport. Go and seek your destinies with the best equipment and becoming the best thrower you can become and waiting for that the best you can be now and in a hort while.

Stagnation is not advancement. Do not make the mistake of stopping to try new techniques and tricks and new equipment with old and new ways of throwing. Chances are that you will need old and new techniques and until you can get proficent in all the skills you ar emore than likely to need more than two diferently flying discs per category. Meaning Putters, Mids, FWs and drivers. Possibly even max D bombers.

There is tournament les and avoiding second round blues to consider when building a bag. The fewer discs=weight you carry and can achieve everything that you need to the fresher you are at the end of the event where many have brain freezes and poor decisions not to mention possible fatique induced throwing errors. You need to look at the whole of the bag, skill set and tournament performance to get a wide enough a tool set to handle everything every time with the fewest scores with the least amount of variation from round to round and conditions that change. You will run into different conditions so you need to practice in all kinds of conditons. That is the only way to build up a comprehensive list of criteria of what you need from a disc and a whole bag. Answer those questons and you may find a disc and a bag answering all your needs.

You might save a lot of money and time and being able to concentrate on throwing improvements and training if you can write doewn a descripton of a disc you need in enough detail to satisfy the above needs you can ask if there is such a disc available. Multiple win for you. I am quilty like many of trying out too many discs instead of getting better with what you have.

Luckily there seems to a few gems coming from those explorations every now and then that make the quest and wasted practice time worth it in the long run. For me some worthy finds like that are Warden, Buzz, Coyote, Beast, Nuke, Force/Spirit any OS putter, mid and fast driver fro, any manufacturer. Mixed bag so try to call me a Discraft fanboy :-D I am wonky in that i have gravitated to a wide speed gap in truly OS discs. So far i have not had problems ditching OS FWs because i get less skipping and enough distance from putters and mids that are meathooks and powering down of fast OS discs like Forces for what many would use OS FWs for. I have not found gaps so far that way in my OS setup and recently i have made do nicely without OS putters in drives and appraoches too.

Putts are another matter there something beefier is needed in some conditions. I have been seen sinking outside of the circle putts with Buzzes and putters with putting form. Out to 150' with a Banger GT in little winds. No joy in the winds and the Buzz cannot handle everything that the sea throws at us so i have used a TB with almost zero ground speed and no signs of dropping when hitting the chains in crazy storms.

There are many ways to pluck a chicken and the silver medalist this year in the Finnish championships has been filmed putting a Firebird into a storm headwind with great consistent success in the FO2010. Juho Parviainen is the name and he is also internationally recognized as one of the few with a 200 meter official throw giving him second place in Big D 8. Check out his final already on lcgm8 of the Finnish championships this year and later when the earlier round comes in his course record at Tammisaari, Finland championship layout course.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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