Inertia - threw one a bit today

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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:04 pm

Interesting...my flat-topped champ Leopards turn fairly easy and will hold an anhyzer to the ground. I don't see how the Star could be much different. Regardless of dome or flat top, the L wing of the Leopard is an understable design and does not induce fade. Another example is the TL, which doesn't have turn like the Leopard, but it's not overstable and the L wing produces very little fade, if any.

Oh, come on JR, using your reasoning, an Orc, Wraith, Surge, Nuke, Boss would all have to be called understable because they have -1 turn. I hope that's not what you're implying.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby discmonkey42 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:19 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:Okay, LOL.

It's been a sh*tfest. I think it's bad news on DG boards when discs are being grossly misrepresented by someone based on his throwing ability, or lack there of. And now he wants all the mfgrs to change the #'s around for every new run of all their molds. Wow!


Tried helping him a couple times, somehow that turned into I don't like him. Just put on ignore and call it a day. He's been playing maybe a year. He recorded himself throwing a while back and all you have to do is watch the video once to see you can't take anything he says about disc flight seriously. Yes, it's frustrating, but you can't help someone who already knows it all. I really laid into him a while back but pulled the post 15 minutes later, no reason to indulge. He pm'd me about that post, but I deleted without reading. Don't really care.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:30 pm

discmonkey42 wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:Okay, LOL.

It's been a sh*tfest. I think it's bad news on DG boards when discs are being grossly misrepresented by someone based on his throwing ability, or lack there of. And now he wants all the mfgrs to change the #'s around for every new run of all their molds. Wow!


Tried helping him a couple times, somehow that turned into I don't like him. Just put on ignore and call it a day. He's been playing maybe a year. He recorded himself throwing a while back and all you have to do is watch the video once to see you can't take anything he says about disc flight seriously. Yes, it's frustrating, but you can't help someone who already knows it all. I really laid into him a while back but pulled the post 15 minutes later, no reason to indulge. He pm'd me about that post, but I deleted without reading. Don't really care.


Okay, man, that explains things. I didn't know about the video, I'll have to look for it. I tried to meet him halfway early on, but got insulted for my effort. Then I decided to school him here. And actually mixed in some info that he might be able to grasp and try and learn from, but it's hopeless. I've edited some more harsh stuff out of my posts too, for what good it did. I knew something was seriously off based on his weird claims of how his discs fly for him.

Thanks.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby PMantle » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:40 am

BentElbow11 wrote::roll: You just don't get it, do you? Thick as a log.

It's highly unlikely that Lat 64 and Westside would choose to test their new discs at altitude in mountains, of which there are none in Finland, and only on the west coast of Sweden.

Also, if it isn't too difficult for you, ask yourself why any mfgr would go out of their way to test new discs under atypical conditions, and then deliberately assign misleading flight #'s to them. Or is this basic logic just too much for you?

According to you, the people at Innova, Lat 64, Westside, etc are all a bunch of yahoos who don't know what they're doing and assign completely erroneous #'s to their discs...but the wannabe expert, PMantle, has exposed this and is on a crusade to get them all to assign different #'s on their discs because they're not flying properly for him. Oh, this is rich!

And how do you explain that your Bolt is flippy understable(stated by you in the Tern thread) but your 'Air' King flew great for you(DGCR post)?

Or how about these gems?...

"My two Champ Terns flew basically like -0.5 2."...PMantle: Tern thread, page 12

"Hell, even GStar at -3 is more stable than all of my Renegades."...PMantle: Tern thread, page 9

So, according to you(chuckle, chuckle) the champ Tern has 0 turn, but the Renegade has more than -3 turn? Really? Despite their ratings of -2,2 for the Tern, and -1.5, 2.5 for the Renegade?

And of course, you have a Leopard that isn't anywhere near -2,1. Anything else in your stack that's flying way off the #'s for you? Better yet, anything that isn't?

PMantle, you've got a problem, that much is clear. Now, are you sure it's a problem with the #'s ratings of each mfgr? Or possibly just your throwing ability?

Hint: if you have clean form and rely on snap, rather than bad form and muscling everything over using a big anhyzer release to TRY and get distance, then discs(drivers especially) will fly true to their numbers...numbers that are assigned by very competent individuals at the respective mfgrs. Likewise, if you have a noodle arm and are weak-arming shorter throws with poor snap and spin, fairway drivers like the Leopard may appear to fly more overstable.

Let's see if I can correct more of your lies.

I have never asserted anything about how Westside tests their discs. My first post on the subject clearly stated I had no idea.

My Bolt was(traded it) both heavy and understable. I have no use for that. It doesn't add anything to my bag. My Air King is light and understable. When thrown downwind with hyzer, it flips up and glides forever. Even my 7 year old would understand that.

When I said -3 to the GStar, that's what's on the disc, moron :lol: Again, you are simply too unintelligent for this discussion. Yes, my Renegades(all of them) are less stable than my one GStar Tern. There is no way that disc is a true -3 just like my two Champs are not -2. It's really simple.


As for the rest of your assertions, you are basing them on numbers instead of throws. hell, it's as if you have never read reviews. If you deny the fact, and it is a fact, that very stable leopards exist in champ, then you are just even dumber than I thought.

Seriously, you are the worst poster I have ever encountered. You provide zero information. You stalk users who do provide it and outright lie about what they have said. You have absolutely no idea what flight numbers mean and I have to guess you have a terrible release and about 250 feet of power. That, or you are failing to disclose a mental disability.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby PMantle » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:42 am

discmonkey42 wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:Okay, LOL.

It's been a sh*tfest. I think it's bad news on DG boards when discs are being grossly misrepresented by someone based on his throwing ability, or lack there of. And now he wants all the mfgrs to change the #'s around for every new run of all their molds. Wow!


Tried helping him a couple times, somehow that turned into I don't like him. Just put on ignore and call it a day. He's been playing maybe a year. He recorded himself throwing a while back and all you have to do is watch the video once to see you can't take anything he says about disc flight seriously. Yes, it's frustrating, but you can't help someone who already knows it all. I really laid into him a while back but pulled the post 15 minutes later, no reason to indulge. He pm'd me about that post, but I deleted without reading. Don't really care.

Yeah, a standstill on the front of a party barge drinking beer. Look, you were an ass to me right out of the gate for no reason whatsoever. So now, you're knighting for this idiot when you know what he is doing is wrong. Hell you even deleted your post. So, so sad.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby JR » Fri Apr 04, 2014 8:57 am

BentElbow11 wrote:Interesting...my flat-topped champ Leopards turn fairly easy and will hold an anhyzer to the ground. I don't see how the Star could be much different. Regardless of dome or flat top, the L wing of the Leopard is an understable design and does not induce fade. Another example is the TL, which doesn't have turn like the Leopard, but it's not overstable and the L wing produces very little fade, if any.

Oh, come on JR, using your reasoning, an Orc, Wraith, Surge, Nuke, Boss would all have to be called understable because they have -1 turn. I hope that's not what you're implying.


You mixed up two separate issues. One is what Innova claims is the turn and the second is the speed/spin/nose angle of any given player throwing hard. If the disc turns it is understable for that thrower just maybe not for the majority. Who gets to decide which part of the throwers is the yardstick for determining which distance determines which disc is os neutral or us? It has not been decided anywhere.

Are you familiar with the term speed stability or cruising speed? A 700' thrower has a much better idea of what a disc does than a 400' thrower who has seen discs act way differently roughly every 30' of pulled power. A 300' thrower really needs to watch the longer throws to even guess about the behavior of their disc at higher power. Only a part of molds behave well at 300' 400' 500' or longer. Unfortunately disc variance is too great to know what part of flight differences comes from the players and the discs.

I just went through the stacks of a European champ after he pillaged mine. He bought more of mine than i did of his. He had never encountered a rancho like mine in stiff plastic with a tiny dome. My esp Zone was more os than his and he reserved it. His had concave tops mine did not. His World was straighter and longer than mine and is still more os in shape vs what i have seen. He got seriously armed with discs that seemed to work well for him so he might get better scores :D
Last edited by JR on Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:00 am

OK, PMantle, I'm letting you have the last word. GL to you and take care.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby JR » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:06 am

BentElbow11 wrote:OK, PMantle, I'm letting you have the last word. GL to you and take care.


That is his mo. Because i was able to inject data i participated. Him alone err no thanks i think i will refrain from posting.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:11 am

JR wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:Interesting...my flat-topped champ Leopards turn fairly easy and will hold an anhyzer to the ground. I don't see how the Star could be much different. Regardless of dome or flat top, the L wing of the Leopard is an understable design and does not induce fade. Another example is the TL, which doesn't have turn like the Leopard, but it's not overstable and the L wing produces very little fade, if any.

Oh, come on JR, using your reasoning, an Orc, Wraith, Surge, Nuke, Boss would all have to be called understable because they have -1 turn. I hope that's not what you're implying.


You mixed up two separate issues. One is what Innova claims is the turn and the second is the speed/spin/nose angle of any given player throwing hard. If the disc turns it is understable for that thrower just maybe not for the majority. Who gets to decide which part of the throwers is the yardstick for determining which distance determines which disc is os neutral or us? It has not been decided anywhere.

Are you familiar with the term speed stability or cruising speed? A 700' thrower has a much better idea of what a disc does than a 400' thrower who has seen discs act way differently roughly every 30' of pulled power. A 300' thrower really needs to watch the longer throws to even guess about the behavior of their disc at higher power. Only a part of molds behave well at 300' 400' 500' or longer.


Not mixing anything up, JR. But I think you are. What you seem to be saying is unless a driver has 0 turn at 700 ft it should be considered understable. That's certainly not the mfgrs criteria in describing the stability of their various drivers.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby Timko » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:04 am

BentElbow11 wrote:OK, PMantle, I'm letting you have the last word. GL to you and take care.


Thank God. This was starting to get old.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby PMantle » Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:57 am

BentElbow11 wrote:OK, PMantle, I'm letting you have the last word. GL to you and take care.

Yay!

BTW, there are stable Leopards. :mrgreen:
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby ferretdance03 » Fri Apr 04, 2014 6:34 pm

Timko wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:OK, PMantle, I'm letting you have the last word. GL to you and take care.


Thank God. This was starting to get old.


Starting? Ugh.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby andrew » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:23 pm

I was impressed that a topic on dgr regarding a disc i've never heard of was 5 pages. nope. bunch of kids bickering. this isn't dgcr. Stop. no reason to insist that someone doesn't know what they're talking about. There is room for subjectivity. There are stable champ leopards, my friend has one in fly-dye- i thought he must be throwing it wrong so threw it myself.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby JR » Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:32 am

BentElbow11 wrote:
JR wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:Interesting...my flat-topped champ Leopards turn fairly easy and will hold an anhyzer to the ground. I don't see how the Star could be much different. Regardless of dome or flat top, the L wing of the Leopard is an understable design and does not induce fade. Another example is the TL, which doesn't have turn like the Leopard, but it's not overstable and the L wing produces very little fade, if any.

Oh, come on JR, using your reasoning, an Orc, Wraith, Surge, Nuke, Boss would all have to be called understable because they have -1 turn. I hope that's not what you're implying.


You mixed up two separate issues. One is what Innova claims is the turn and the second is the speed/spin/nose angle of any given player throwing hard. If the disc turns it is understable for that thrower just maybe not for the majority. Who gets to decide which part of the throwers is the yardstick for determining which distance determines which disc is os neutral or us? It has not been decided anywhere.

Are you familiar with the term speed stability or cruising speed? A 700' thrower has a much better idea of what a disc does than a 400' thrower who has seen discs act way differently roughly every 30' of pulled power. A 300' thrower really needs to watch the longer throws to even guess about the behavior of their disc at higher power. Only a part of molds behave well at 300' 400' 500' or longer.


Not mixing anything up, JR. But I think you are. What you seem to be saying is unless a driver has 0 turn at 700 ft it should be considered understable. That's certainly not the mfgrs criteria in describing the stability of their various drivers.


That is not what i said so you need to read my post again.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:04 pm

Do I have to? :wink:

Mfgrs provide their own flight charts/graphs and typically show a driver's flight path(stability) out to about 450 ft. I'm not concerned about 700 ft, and neither are they evidently. As for what happens between 300 ft of power and 400-450, of course there need to be adjustments by the thrower. What does that have to do with whether a driver design is overstable, stable, or understable, as described by the mfgrs that make them? Are we to believe them, or a bunch of random throwers at different skill levels?
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