Inertia - threw one a bit today

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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby JR » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:02 am

Apparently you do need to read again.

Has Innova speced at which distance (nose angle ans spin hehe) their chart is made now? It has never been published before.

If you think that a Boss at 30' is OS you might be surprised by what some of them do thrown far. I have seen very different stabilities in Bosses though but the majority are not that beefy and the most OS i have seen are really OS. Discs for different roles. Now take Aviar P&A and toss it far as well and you will see very different behavior compared to the Boss. At which range is either understable, straight stable and overstable? Which distance would you pick as the reference point? I have not seen a statement for 450' test range from anyone. At one Swedish site discs are rated at 330'.

So what is understable etc. really? Who gets to decide. I sure will not accept the label from anyone throwing way less than me as most bombers would not accept my labels. Which is why is is mandatory to describe what the disc does with which parameters to give even any semblance of reality to their flight paths. And the rarity of data points at 500'+ makes gauging of speed stability somewhat iffy even when one counts in headwind throws of less throwing players. BTW most 175 Bosses flip like bitches in headwinds at my power despite them fading out too hard for me for ultimate distance. I am not afraid of harder fading discs because my longest throws are with Nukes that fade hard too. Just a little later and a hair less. If there was a disc that was otherwise like a Nuke but fading less they would go farther for me.

How does one rate stability anyway? High speed or low speed performance? Both? Weighted how. No wonder our resident physicist is not happy with those terms considering they are not proper descriptions of anything in aerodynamics.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby PMantle » Mon Apr 07, 2014 3:50 pm

andrew wrote:I was impressed that a topic on dgr regarding a disc i've never heard of was 5 pages. nope. bunch of kids bickering. this isn't dgcr. Stop. no reason to insist that someone doesn't know what they're talking about. There is room for subjectivity. There are stable champ leopards, my friend has one in fly-dye- i thought he must be throwing it wrong so threw it myself.

:cheers:
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby itlnstln » Mon Apr 14, 2014 2:08 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:You mean your Leopard is flying overstable for you too? Oh boy!

Oh, and what you're suggesting is not only screwy, but impossible.


I don't mean to inject myself into you guys' bromance, but for the record, the last 4 Champ Leos (max weight) I have had have been at around -1 for turn at best. I eventually beat one in enough to maybe get to -2, but that was probably in a headwind. I can get a Teebird out to 400'+, so I'm not a weenie arm, either, it's just that these newer runs of Leos have been pretty overstable.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Mon Apr 14, 2014 8:08 pm

I have 2 champ Leopards with flat tops and higher PLH. They're both still straight fliers with tiny fade and will hold an anny to the ground. Less turn? Yeah, a little. I also have a pretty domey champ Leopard which is actually more stable, but in no way "overstable", and doesn't fly anything like my champ Teebirds. Unless Innova did something with the mold recently...
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby JR » Tue Apr 15, 2014 1:55 pm

I have no idea about recent Leps but a Star from late summer 2012 IIRC with a flatter top than any i've ever seen does not turn at all with my full power. HSS 0 in calm weather. It does flip easily with even farly mild headwinds so in that way the turn rating becomes pretty meaningless seeing how speed stable -or not at all actually- it is. In headwinds it flips as bad as any Lep so at least a -2 turn Innova scale.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby PMantle » Tue Apr 15, 2014 2:12 pm

itlnstln wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:You mean your Leopard is flying overstable for you too? Oh boy!

Oh, and what you're suggesting is not only screwy, but impossible.


I don't mean to inject myself into you guys' bromance, but for the record, the last 4 Champ Leos (max weight) I have had have been at around -1 for turn at best. I eventually beat one in enough to maybe get to -2, but that was probably in a headwind. I can get a Teebird out to 400'+, so I'm not a weenie arm, either, it's just that these newer runs of Leos have been pretty overstable.

See, this is even past what I said.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 4:54 pm

JR wrote:I have no idea about recent Leps but a Star from late summer 2012 IIRC with a flatter top than any i've ever seen does not turn at all with my full power. HSS 0 in calm weather. It does flip easily with even farly mild headwinds so in that way the turn rating becomes pretty meaningless seeing how speed stable -or not at all actually- it is. In headwinds it flips as bad as any Lep so at least a -2 turn Innova scale.


So, JR, your Leopard has no turn under normal conditions, but still flips bad in a headwind. That doesn't equate to "overstable", agreed?

I've also thrown DX and Pro Leopards in the past and they were less stable than my champs, which I would expect. Whether or not some Leopards have less turn, which may be the case, no Leopard should have much fade and no Leopard should be Teebird overstable.

The issue isn't about more stable Leopards, but "overstable" Leopards...which I think is laughable.

My flat champs are from 2012, the domey one is from 2010.
Last edited by BentElbow11 on Tue Apr 15, 2014 7:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 6:01 pm

PMantle wrote:
itlnstln wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:You mean your Leopard is flying overstable for you too? Oh boy!

Oh, and what you're suggesting is not only screwy, but impossible.


I don't mean to inject myself into you guys' bromance, but for the record, the last 4 Champ Leos (max weight) I have had have been at around -1 for turn at best. I eventually beat one in enough to maybe get to -2, but that was probably in a headwind. I can get a Teebird out to 400'+, so I'm not a weenie arm, either, it's just that these newer runs of Leos have been pretty overstable.

See, this is even past what I said.


Yes, it is. Now if only someone would come along and claim their Sorcerer flies like a Mamba, you'd be completely off the hook...for the moment anyway.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby JR » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:36 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:
JR wrote:I have no idea about recent Leps but a Star from late summer 2012 IIRC with a flatter top than any i've ever seen does not turn at all with my full power. HSS 0 in calm weather. It does flip easily with even farly mild headwinds so in that way the turn rating becomes pretty meaningless seeing how speed stable -or not at all actually- it is. In headwinds it flips as bad as any Lep so at least a -2 turn Innova scale.


So, JR, your Leopard has no turn under normal conditions, but still flips bad in a headwind. That doesn't equate to "overstable", agreed?

I've also thrown DX and Pro Leopards in the past and they were less stable than my champs, which I would expect. Whether or not some Leopards have less turn, which may be the case, no Leopard should have much fade and no Leopard should be Teebird overstable.

The issue isn't about more stable Leopards, but "overstable" Leopards...which I think is laughable.

My flat champs are from 2012, the domey one is from 2010.


I have never claimed Leos to be overstable. Leos should not be thrown into headwinds anyway so in calm conditions that one very different to my older ones of each plastic (i like Leos and have carried them for about a decade) that anomalous Star is closer to the bottom of moderately overstable than straight stable. While the others are understable and none are straight stable unless hyzer flipped.

I do not think that it so laughable for my Star Leo to seem overstable to a say 150' perhaps even 200' thrower because it does exhibit distance limiting fade at those distances unlike other Leos i have. Which points out the inaccuracy of the term stable/US/OS. It all depends on the speed/spin/nose angle combo of any given thrower. If you lie outside of the great majority of players in having more or less power you will see different results from discs that exhibit any speed stability issues. To me each disc does to some extent including Rocs and Teebirds. With most doscs acting way way more differently than those two at different ends of the power spectrum. Rocs do not dump fade after breaking in at short ranges and i filmed Markus Källström throw one well over 400' into pretty bad left front wind coming back in the end not really flipping a lot more like tracking and being pushed by the wind than turning.

But a meathook Leo at short ranges sounds either a different use of the term OS than the majority does or a freak disc or misstamping of a beefier disc. Seeing as i have an ESP Cyclone that i do not have the power for because that darn thing dumps and have a TP that was a roller when new discs can vary a lot. But i do not know if they even came from the same mold. Same name does not imply a same mold because molds wear and need to be replaced over time and those discs are well over 5 years distant in manufacturing dates. Beasts have been reported to be made in a different mold and the newest ones from the last few years flip less than the new molds which of course were different to the original mold. So who knows? At this point the manufacturing differences i have encountered are highly rediculous so with that in mind i am ok in leaving open the possibility that in calm conditions and low power the report of a single disc being truly overstable is a possibility without mistakes on the part of the thrower and the stamper of the disc. sure it is outlandish but so are the manufactuiring variations i have seen :roll:
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:51 pm

Okay, sounds about right to me.

The Leopard is really a poor example of somehow being overstable because the wing design is understable(the L wing). I've thrown enough of them to see typical variation in different plastics and within the same plastic type, but that doesn't transform it into a Viper. It's simply not a disc I would ever refer to as "overstable, sorry. Truly overstable molds leave no doubt.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby JR » Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:07 am

Ditto. I think Blake was clever in the bag building article in stating different roles like straight moderately os and truly os. Something is extremely wrong if any Leo is truly overstable to the max.
Flat shots need running on the center line of the tee and planting each step on the center line. Anhyzer needs running from rear right to front left with the plant step hitting the ground to the left of the line you're running on. Hyzer is the mirror of that.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby PMantle » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:42 pm

BentElbow11 wrote:
PMantle wrote:
itlnstln wrote:
BentElbow11 wrote:You mean your Leopard is flying overstable for you too? Oh boy!

Oh, and what you're suggesting is not only screwy, but impossible.


I don't mean to inject myself into you guys' bromance, but for the record, the last 4 Champ Leos (max weight) I have had have been at around -1 for turn at best. I eventually beat one in enough to maybe get to -2, but that was probably in a headwind. I can get a Teebird out to 400'+, so I'm not a weenie arm, either, it's just that these newer runs of Leos have been pretty overstable.

See, this is even past what I said.


Yes, it is. Now if only someone would come along and claim their Sorcerer flies like a Mamba, you'd be completely off the hook...for the moment anyway.

What's funny about this is, lots of people think the Sorcerer is more understable than I do, and you just can't admit you're wrong(about what I said). You just basically suck at this.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 2:34 pm

"You just basically suck at this."

I've seen your video.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby PMantle » Mon May 05, 2014 12:50 pm

I decided to make an all MVP bag, and the Inertia was obtained for a Resistor I was not throwing much but was needed by my buddy who loves all things overstable. Really liking it now. Not as much shorter than Terns or my King as I expected. At 174, it's heavier than what I am used to, so I may get a lighter one for truly understable duty.
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Re: Inertia - threw one a bit today

Postby BentElbow11 » Mon May 05, 2014 2:22 pm

Right, Inertia won't be much shorter than Tern or King at 250 ft of distance.
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