Ive been converted!

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Ive been converted!

Postby jgarcia9102 » Sat May 13, 2006 6:21 pm

when i first sarted playing i threw a champ Tee bird. i never liked it. i never doubted it was a good disc, but i just figued it wasnt for me.

i also used to throw dx, but playing mainly in a wooded course, i quickly changed to champion. again, its not that i thought D/dx was bad, i just figured i just was better with my Z/Champ.

Well, here i am, admitting that i too have been converted to blakes ways. i picked up 2 DX Teebirds this morning, along with a DX Gazelle, and after 2 rounds, i am impressed.

My overall impression of the teebird is exactly what everyone has been saying all along. i just always had a champion, and i figure thats why i never liked it. its just a different disc entirely.

Also, im so glad that i found the gazelle. ive never seen one person use it, and this was the first place i had ever heard that it was a good disc. i wish i had picked it up earlier! im loving the controll on this disc. it may sound crazy, but i see it as being one of my longest drivers. the glide on this disc is just rediculous, the flight is exactly what ive been looking for.

so there it is. Im in love with DX teebirds and gazelles, and im sure i will be throwing a lot more DX in the future. my main problem is, i already have a noticibly different teebird after 2 rounds, i hope it dosent turn into somehting i dont like. i do play around 10 rounds a week, and i dont think i can afford a new one every weekend. same thing with the gazelle. i do believe in the magic of DX now, i just wish it was more practical for my home course!

well thank you blake. i know you hear it all the time, but i dont think the people here can say it enough.
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Postby Bradley Walker » Sat May 13, 2006 7:42 pm

After coming back to disc golf I never even bothered trying the DX in the faster discs. When I played around with the better plastic, I always thought the flight was odd...

Now i have revisited just about every disc i ever tried in DX. The fast discs fly completely better, and are much more forgiving to throw (except into the wind, as they are much more "true" stable).

I bought a DX Orc this morning. I think I threw it near 500' this afternoon at Greenbelt. Funny thing is, I thought the Orc was superoverstable. It is not. It is very speed tolerant in DX, and far less nose angle sensitve.

I will have to wait until the wind calms to snap the crap out of the Valkyries I aquired. They seem to fly well, butstill can't catch the Orc.

I can throw the DX on a very "true" line. The better lastic flight just looks odd now.
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Postby Blake_T » Sat May 13, 2006 11:43 pm

man, people act like dx plastic is ripped in half after one round.

some pictures from my home courses:
http://www.playdg.com/kaposia/?h=5
http://www.playdg.com/kaposia/?h=6
http://www.playdg.com/kaposia/?h=12
http://www.playdg.com/kaposia/?h=13
http://www.playdg.com/oakwood/?h=6
http://www.playdg.com/oakwood/?h=7
http://www.playdg.com/oakwood/?h=10
http://www.playdg.com/oakwood/?h=12
http://www.playdg.com/oakwood/?h=13
http://www.playdg.com/plymouthcreek/?h=7
http://www.playdg.com/plymouthcreek/?h=8
http://www.playdg.com/lakewoodhills/?h=10
http://www.playdg.com/lakewoodhills/?h=11

i play 30-40 rounds a month, and my dx discs (gazelles and teebirds at least) will last me about 2-5 months before they are flippy. it usually takes me a minimum of 6 weeks to break one in to where i really like it, then it lasts for ~3 months before they reach the next stage of break in.

a few reasons why:
1) i don't throw drivers on holes longer than 275' unless it is a very low ceiling, uphill, or a hard fade shot. most holes are under 275'. there's maybe 15 or so courses i know of in the country that have an average hole length of longer than 300' and are super wooded. if the holes are outside of deuce range, accuracy will dominate distance.

2) i don't throw 100% power when hitting a small gap. this is just common sense :P

3) i carry multiples of any dx disc i carry.

i can probably break it down a little more to show what i am talking about. key: osd = overstable driver (champ/z), dxd = dx driver (# indicates wear, 1 = newish, 3 = very beat), M = mid, P = putter. be patient as i am getting to a point :)

kaposia (medium/long course): 1 M, 2 M, 3 DXD3, 4 DXD3, 5 short M, 5 long DXD2, 6 short M, 6 long DXD2, 7 short M, 7 long OSD, 8 DXD1, 9 DXD2, 10 DXD2, 11 M, 12 M, 13 OSD, 14 DXD2, 15 DXD2, 16 M, 17 DXD2, 18 P.

all shorts = 1 P, 8 M, 1 OSD, 1 DXD 1, 5 DXD2, 2 DXD3
all longs = 1 P, 5 M, 2 OSD, 1 DXD1, 7 DXD2, 2 DXD3

north valley (long course): 1 OSD, 2 short OSD, 2 long DXD3, 3 M, 4 P, 5 OSD, 6 DXD1, 7 OSD, 8 DXD2, 9 OSD, 10 DXD2, 11 DXD1, 12 M, 13 OSD, 14 DXD2, 15 DXD1, 16 short DXD2, 16 long DXD1, 17 DXD2, 18 DXD2.

all shorts = 1 P, 2 M, 6 OSD, 3 DXD1, 5 DXD2, 1 DXD3
all longs = 1 P, 2 M, 5 OSD, 4 DXD1, 4 DXD2, 2 DXD3

oakwood (medium/short course): 1 M, 2 OSD, 3 DXD2, 4 DXD2, 5 M, 6 M, 7 DXD3, 8 DXD2, 9 P, 10 M, 11 DXD3, 12 M, 13 DXD2, 14 OSD, 15 DXD3, 16 DXD2, 17 DXD2, 18 DXD2.

summary = 1 P, 5 M, 2 OSD, 0 DXD1, 7 DXD2, 3 DXD3

acorn (short/medium course): 1 short M, 1 long DXD2, 2 M, 3 DXD3, 4 P, 5 M, 6 M, 7 M, 8 OSD, 9 DXD2, 10 short M, 10 long DXD2, 11 DXD2, 12 short P, 12 long M, 13 OSD, 14 P, 15 short M, 15 long DXD1, 16 DXD2, 17 M, 18 DXD2.

all short: 3 P, 8 M, 2 OSD, 0 DXD1, 4 DXD2, 1 DXD3
all long: 2 P, 6 M, 2 OSD, 1 DXD1, 6 DXD2, 1 DXD3

across 7 layouts, the averages per round off the tee (parenthesis show the # of each disc i carry and calculating assuming each gets thrown the same number of times) =
1.4 P (3) = 0.5 per disc
5.1 M (4) = 1.3 per disc
2.9 OSD (3) = 1.0 per disc
1.4 DXD1 (2) = 0.7 per disc
5.4 DXD2 (2) = 2.7 per disc
1.7 DXD3 (2) = 0.9 per disc

as you can see from my teeshots, the most any disc averages seeing is about 3 throws per round. about 70% of my non-teeshots are done with a P, about 28% with OSD/M, and the remaining 2% with the other drivers.

assuming i play even par, that means i throw about 1 shot per round with DXD1/2/3 combined. about 5 shots each with OSD and M, and 25 shots with putters.

the composite:
27 throws across 3 putters
10 throws across 4 mids
8 throws across 3 overstable champ/z drivers
9 throws across 6 dx drivers

i'm going to make up some numbers here:
let's say it takes 15 major hits (during the first 1/3 of flight) to take a disc from dxd1 to dxd2, and 30 major hits to take a disc from dxd2 to dxd3, and 45 major hits to take a dxd2 to dxd3. 4 moderate hits (during the middle 1/3 of flight) = 1 major hit. 4 minor hits (during the final 1/3 of flight) = 1 moderate hit (16 minor = 1 major).

let's say i suck and 25% of my teeshots get a major hit, 25% get a moderate hit, 25% get a minor hit, and 25% don't hit anything. calculations will be based on the assumption that the 1 non-drive per round will always be performed with the disc being calculated for.
a DXD1 to DXD2 will take ~58 throws (1.7 throws per round = 34 rounds)
a DXD2 to DXD3 will take ~116 throws (3.7 throws per round = 31 rounds)
a DXD3 to NULL will take ~232 throws (1.9 throws per round = 122 rounds)

now let's say you buy 6 new DX, break 3 of them in to DXD2, and buy 3 DXD3's off the pond rats. every week you rotate which ones you throw.
now a DXD1 to 2 lasts 102 rounds.
a DXD2 to 3 lasts 93 rounds.
a DXD3 to NULL lasts 366 rounds.

these assumptions won't be accurate for most players. even on really tight courses my percentages are more like 10% major, 20% moderate, 30% minor, 40% no hit which would push the lifespans out substantially.

from the sound of it you would benefit from tracking down some x-outs or old tournament stamped gazelles and teebirds for $5-6 each and grabbing a stack of 5 of each or so.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Sun May 14, 2006 7:57 am

my only problem was this: At the beginning of the first round, i was able to throw the TB on a straight line without a flip, basically i could crank it without it turning right. now, after the second round, the last hole i played was a long anny approach. i was able to keep the TB on the anny line without it fading out for a long time. now im not necessarily complaining, i like both my new TB and this slightly broken in one. the differences are not drastic, in fact, probably barely noticible in a field, but they are different. in my origional post i was just saying i hope i dont end up with a new disc after every round.

i will rotate my discs now that i know what i like. i had to test the waters a bit. i am pretty sure i can get 5 DX for 30$, so its not a big deal.

and for the record, my course averages probably about 275 also, but there are 4 holes over 500', and plently of tunnel shots. and when i choose a disc to throw on the tee, it has little to do with range and everything to do with stability. i can throw my mids to the basket on about 75% of the holes, and probably my putter too, but i only throw them on probably 4 holes. ill throw a 200' drive with my eagle just because its stability is perfect for a hole. does that mean i couldnt throw my putter? of course not. my point is, i used my drivers a lot, especially when im trying out new ones(like the tee bird and gazelle). id say for how much i used it, the DX held up pretty well.
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Postby Blake_T » Sun May 14, 2006 8:09 am

the thing is, most midranges and putters have better stability than drivers.

i'm less apt to flip a roc or a wizard than i am to flip any of my drivers as rocs and wizards are more stable than basically any straight driver except a new teebird.

disc break in is always directly related to the number of throws each discs sees per round.

if my bag was a bit bigger i'd be carrying 4 putters and 5 rocs.

there was a time when my bag consisted of 1 dx valk, 7 dx teebirds, 1 z xtra, 5 dx rocs, and 4 s wizards. i basically had my pick of stabilities within 3 molds.
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Postby Blake_T » Sun May 14, 2006 8:38 am

something else of note, certain shapes of discs are way more durable than others.

i always look at it this way, if the bottom rim were a sheet metal wall, which disc would make the strongest wall?

discs with beads, notches, larger slopes, more flight plate mass, etc. are inherently more structurally rigid than discs that have a flatter rim shape and are thin in the flight plate.

a dx roc will take like 30-40 major hits to make it substantially change, whereas a dx valkyrie will take like 4.

the gazelle will be more durable than a teebird, the teebird will be more durable than a valk, etc.

out of the dx drivers, the really fragile ones are:
valk
archangel
beast
viking
orc
wraith (i believe it will show itself to be in the long run).

these are wide rimmed discs with little flight plate mass and smooth rims.

the most durable drivers due to shape:
viper
gazelle
cheetah
pegasus
raven
cobra

the teebird will be more structurally rigid than the eagle (the T has greater rim depth and a bigger dome), but its subtle changes will also seem more significant than an eagles because of its flight characteristics.

also, it is in the tunnel shots where the accuracy of slower discs will really shine and having a variety of stability flavors will be of greatest importance. when i reach a 450' tunnel shot i will usually throw a 275' roc shot and play for 3. this actually moved me way up in a tournament once when everyone on my card tried to "reach" it and the person ahead of me took an 8 and i threw 2 rocs and hit the pin on my 2nd shot.
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Postby Jwt4412 » Sun May 14, 2006 8:51 am

Blake,

That looks like a lot thinkin' going on while you play...

If you have the "go to" roc in the bag, you won't pick it up so you can break in another roc?

When do you decide?

When playing a practice round or a rec round - do you throw only one disc per shot or multiple?
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Postby Blake_T » Sun May 14, 2006 9:27 am

this isn't stuff i think about during the round.

i had to consult a course map with pictures to tell me what the hole #'s were, even on courses i've played 500 times.

i have a knack for seeing lines and being able to spot every possible route to the basket my first time playing the hole. it takes less than 10 seconds to pick the highest percentage shot that will yield a putt/clean approach.
you'll be surprised how rarely this coincides with the "park it" line.

the first time i play a course my first instinct shot will usually be what i use on about 95% of the holes the 10th time i play the course.

all of my rocs are go to rocs.
i'm as comfortable cranking on a new roc flat as i am with a broken in roc w/ 20 deg hyzer.

my game varies a bit round by round, and generally i know during warmups or after 2-3 holes what is working well and what isn't and will use that to make adjustments. i will still throw a roc, it's just a matter of which one and how will i throw it.

as for throwing multiple drives, most of our courses are too busy to do this politely as there is an average of about a 20 minute wait time at tee 1 and plenty of log jams.

if i do throw multiple drives, it's generally to throw a completely different line. rarely will i try to throw the exact same shot that i just threw, as i don't think this really does much practice wise, it's more of a frustration vent.

i generally reserve line practice for the field.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Sun May 14, 2006 10:57 am

Blake_T wrote:also, it is in the tunnel shots where the accuracy of slower discs will really shine and having a variety of stability flavors will be of greatest importance.


Im loving the gazelle for that reason. its like a super long midrange. its so controllable i love it. i usually would throw my mids more, but as you may remember, i just picked up a spider and i took my Buzz out of the bag to learn one stable mid. in the mean time, it is my only mid because im sort of redoing a lot of my bag (after loosing 2 midranges on a freshly made course). so basically my mid department is a bit lacking ATM.

i have to say though, i almost aced hole 9 on my course this morning, which is about 225' and a long hyzer, with my CE eagle. I used to throw the buzz/spider, but i find that its very easy to throw a 60% power shot with a flat eagle rather than judging the needed height and hyzer for the ammount of wind on each day etc... it may be a different story if i had my Demon still, as that would be a great shot.

overall i have to say that the past 3 rounds i have been playing pretty well compared to my norm. i was -2 today on the front 9 which has 2 par 5s and a par 4 (i was playing par 3's). usually i average around a 2. i cant say its definatly due to the DX gazelle and TB, but the limeted molds in my bag may have something to do with it.

my current bag is:

175 Champ Firebird
174 CE eagle
174 DX TB
174 DX Gazelle
174 Champ Sidewinder
175 Proline Spider
178? D Magnet

i plan on adding a Champ rhyno or gator as an overstable mid, and probably a D Buzz that i can break in for an understable mid.

I am also taking out my firebird as its not any more overstable than my Eagle at this point, and i never really needed something that overstable anyways. i would like to get something inbetween my CE eagle and TB too, althought i havent really decided what . i was thinking an X avenger or somehting along those lines for super open shots and big D lines.
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Postby Blake_T » Sun May 14, 2006 5:14 pm

spend a month throwing mids on every hole under 250' for a month (at least 30 rounds) and i can assure you that you will shave 2 strokes from your game.

which is about 225' and a long hyzer, with my CE eagle. I used to throw the buzz/spider, but i find that its very easy to throw a 60% power shot with a flat eagle rather than judging the needed height and hyzer for the ammount of wind on each day etc..


this is a bad mentality for 2 reasons. 1) it's nearly impossible to consistently throw flat repeatedly. 2) a 60% power shot with an eagle should go way farther than 225' unless it's a knife hyzer :P

i can consistently throw my putters over 200' without taking a step (~230' with rocs) and this ends up as the great equalizer when i'm playing against people that have a much stronger tee game but lack the mid/putter game.

the shot you are describing is a finishless shot, which is never all that consistent in the long run as it lacks focused power. i'm guessing on these shots that either you let go or that the disc slides out of your hand. if either is the case, that is very inconsistent in its left/right trajectory.

better accuracy can be achieved with a shot that is nearly all finish with very little arm speed. to do this, basically use no reach back and accelerate, acting like you are trying to smash the back of your hand into the target. these are really the shots that feel like they are connected to a string.
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Postby jgarcia9102 » Sun May 14, 2006 5:59 pm

ill definatly do that when i figure out what mids i will be using. i used to throw my mids all the time. my buzz was my go to disc on basically every hole under 350. im switching up the mids though, and in the mean time ive been doing what i know works, like throwing drivers.

your right though, when i drive 225 with an eagle, i dont finish. i actually throw it like a mid pretty much. no X step at all, and i dont do my driving grip, instead i use the controll grip with my pointer on the rim. i really should be talking about this here though, ill bring it up later in techniques, this topic kinda got pushed off by me.


i am still loving My DX though. just got back from a second round and i really do notice the increase in glide. today the discs didnt noticibly break in at all, so im not as concerned as before. i suppose i just hit a lot of trees yesterday, and thats what broke in my TB so quickly.
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Postby Blake_T » Sun May 14, 2006 9:49 pm

i suppose i just hit a lot of trees yesterday, and thats what broke in my TB so quickly.


your teebird just flies like "it should" now.

the other part of the teebird's hallmark is that it has very little fade, but this takes a couple of weeks to achieve as it is fairly low speed overstable out of the box.

as for your shot description, you were throwing it like a finesse approach shot is probably a better term than "throwing it like a mid" as i get crankin on my mids pretty hard when i want them to go far.[/code]
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