Disc Minimalism and retrofitting

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Postby Blake_T » Thu Jun 01, 2006 12:50 am

eastern time is 1 hour ahead. i'm also a night owl that burns the candle at both ends.

but I use each of the overlapping molds differently


the idea is to use a single mold for multiple shots. it increases overall skills and breeds familiarity. i'll usually give a particular mold a few weeks before i decide whether or not it isn't well suited for a particular shot.

as for overlap:
ESP surge: max D, stable
SOLF: stable distance driver
Pro SL: understable distance driver (S-shots)

the surge is slightly understable at high speeds, as is the SL. the surge isn't noticeably longer than the SOLF nor the SL. so... you could probably pull off most of what you are looking for with 3 discs of 1 mold. the SOLF is probably the best choice for this. hyzer to make it fly overstable. anhyzer to make it fly understable.

more overlap:
Star TB; *DX TB: stable drivers
*D cyclone: stable S-curve driver

the star TB has a similar flight path to a SOLF, surge, and new roc. if a disc s-curves, it isn't really a stable driver... but it can be a control driver due to speed. basically, a star teebird anhyzer will also s-curve.

i've already posted the formula for a bag:
1) stable control driver
2) max d driver (can be the same as 4)
3) understable driver (can be beat version of 1 or 2)
4) moderately overstable driver (can be stable/overstable versions of 1 or 2 or beat version of 5)
5) very overstable driver

6) stable midrange (2+ in varying wear)
7) stable putt & approach (2+ in varying wear)

i'm not the only one that favors carrying a few molds. i read in an interview once w/ climo that at that time he was carrying 6 teebirds, 6 rocs, 6 aviars, and a firebird. i know ron russell went through a phase (around when he won worlds) of cyclones, comets, and magnets.

as for ideal, there isn't one really. if you really want to become a utility man... you could probably have a pretty solid bag w/ picking 1 or 2 driver molds and using them until you can break a few in and really end up w/ the full spectrum of stabilities, that is, from rollers to overstable. once it is no longer a struggle to find the "right shot" then going back and adding more molds.

here is an example of a "do everything" bag with 3 molds:
1) mid-weight d cyclone
2) light weight d cyclone (for tailwinds)
3) super beat d cyclone (any weight, or moderately beat flathead cyclone)
4) max weight x cyclone
5) any weight z cyclone

6a) broken in dx roc
6b) newish dx roc
6c) newish kc roc
6d) thrashed dx roc
7a) newish s wizard
7b) broken in s wizard
7c) thrashed ss wizard

concise version of your bag:
1) dx teebird OR d cyclone
2) SOLF
3) x xs
4) SOLF
5) spirit
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Postby presidio hills » Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:37 am

lately i've been throwing both D XLs and DX eagles. 2 of my eagles are beat up to the point they're as easy to turn over as my XLs. still, i wonder if there is something about the flight of an XL that might benifit me...
my max D drives are when i throw a 15-20' anhyzer with a DX eagle.
i'm thinking of ditching the XLs... then i'll only have eagles (beat, new), and xtras as my drivers. i figure this'll work in most situations (wind, woods, open). am i on the right track?
eagles, rocs, wizards, xtras (probably won't use much)
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Postby disc_golfing_fool » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:53 am

Thanks Blake! I guess I missed that "bag formula". Excellent template.

I am also well aware of the fact that many of the games best are "masters of simplicity". No doubt that there is something to this, when all of the worlds best are doing it. I could add several more names to that list.
I completely agree with this approach, and this is one of my training goals.
It is also clear that this approach pretty much requires multiple stages of wear for each mold. The point being that it takes time to reach this stage of bag development.

Before I added the Surge, I was using mainly SLs in three different stages. I am surprised by your statement that they are the same, because the Surge is more pre-didly-ictable and added an instant 50+ feet on my drives which I felt was significant distance gain.

However, I also believe that there would be benefit to learning how to throw the TBs and Rocs 350' on a frozen rope.

So, If I decide to go with the Starfire, would the SL and SX be considered one mold? What about TBs and TLs?

Its funny, I've been reading this philosophy in your writing for two years now, but it takes an entirely different connotation when it becomes internalized. I have a lot to chew on now.

I can't thank you enough for your patience and guidance.
I want to play around some with of these ideas, I'll let you know how it goes.

8)
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Postby Blake_T » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:55 am

L and X molds should be treated as diff discs.

diff plastics can be treated as the same mold, recognizing the stability will shift without much change in speed.
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Postby disc_golfing_fool » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:06 am

I forgot to ask:

Is the bead what makes a disc "true stable"? Are there any exceptions to this, ie. discs w/o a bead that are "true stable" or discs with a bead that are not?

Are there other types of "stabilizers"? You mentioned the flat portion of the rim on a cyclone as an example. Any other examples?

You mentioned the pred as being "true stable", which got me thinking about what physical qualities of a disc make it "true stable".


8)
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Postby Blake_T » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:11 am

there are no rules, but a lot of factors that contribute.

a bead (either rounded or abrupt) will add to it. as will the wing notch. neither are indicators that it will be true stable.

the wolf has a bead and is flippy. the orc has a notch and is flippy.

a higher dome will often help stabilize discs as well (this is one of the pred's advantages).
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Postby disc_golfing_fool » Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:22 am

Is there a list of discs somewhere that are "true stable" discs?

The tiered driver system does not distinguish between "true stable" and non-"true stable" discs, that is both are represented within a single tier.

There is definitely something to this "true stable" gig. I want to maximize the benefits of throwing "true stable" discs.
~~~some rise, some fall, some climb to get to Terrapin~~~
~~peace.love.disc~~

OM
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Postby disc_golfing_fool » Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:04 pm

Played hot yesterday. Putting practice is starting to pay off. Good pulls (much less "torque monkey") and good decisions. I played well, and left several of the "specialty" discs in the bag all day.

My mantra in the money match was "Roc down the middle", one helluva plan: won $40!

I see the light with regards to minimalism, I have decided on this setup after reviewing the rounds, and the strengths and weaknesses of my new and improved game.

New bag:
Avengers/Pred.
Teebirds
Rocs
Wizards

I like the "true stable"-ness of the avenger and predator, over the curvy SL flight. Going to the Pred. from the Spirit is an effort to remain as consistent as possible across drivers.

I will also likely keep the x-xs until the new x-avenger is nicely worn in to an anhyzer disc. I am also toying with a D valkyrie for max D, but no decision yet.

I have not taken this new configuration to the course yet, but it fits well with the "bag template" and is well within the spirit of familiarity across molds.

I played with a pro yesterday who confirmed what I am trying to do with my game. He said so much that I have only recently been ready to truly "hear".

The Plan:
1. Become a 1000-rated putter
2. Become a master of simplicity

8)
~~~some rise, some fall, some climb to get to Terrapin~~~
~~peace.love.disc~~

OM
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Postby Thatdirtykid » Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:11 pm

disc_golfing_fool wrote:
New bag:
Avengers/Pred.
Teebirds
Rocs
Wizards

I like the "true stable"-ness of the avenger and predator, over the curvy SL flight. Going to the Pred. from the Spirit is an effort to remain as consistent as possible across drivers.

I will also likely keep the x-xs until the new x-avenger is nicely worn in to an anhyzer


I wouldnt say the avenger is true stable.
They make great turnover discs broken in though. My fav avenger I can throw from 30 degrees of hyzer have it fly long and straight and fall off/flip right (RHBH)
Z Pred-ESP Cyclone-Z Force-Z Aftershock-Z Comet-Ion-Pro Rhyno
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Postby disc_golfing_fool » Mon Jun 05, 2006 6:24 pm

from a Blake T post at pdga, that answers one of my previous questions:

discs i know of that had a rep as being very high speed stable for bigger throwers at any point in DG. teebird, firebird, predator, x2, x-clone, and the roc


Are there any more discs to add to this list (a few mentioned above, ie. SF-X)

---
TDK,
Thanks for the replies. I'm going to continue to wear in a med and ss wiz to try to get a hyze-flip line. I throw a lot of control annies, but also want the hyzer-flip line. Most of my wizards are very stable, so I was just curious if it was even possible to get one to flip. The ss may meet with an unfortunate bead shaving accident. :shock:

Just in observation, I agree that the X-avenger becomes flippy when broken in. Blake gives the Avenger honorable mention as a "best stable driver", which I took to mean his definition of "stable". I am hoping that between the x/z avenger and x pred, I'll get all I need from (essentially) one mold.

My longest ever throws have been huge towering hyzer flips with a well seasoned X avenger. For some reason, the further they go the harder they are to find, and it was lost.

8)
~~~some rise, some fall, some climb to get to Terrapin~~~
~~peace.love.disc~~

OM
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Postby Blake_T » Mon Jun 05, 2006 7:28 pm

there are annies that aren't touch annies. basically, you can kill a wizard on an anhyzer line and it will hold.

the x avenger stability varies a lot by weight. the heavier x avengers are way more stable when new, and thus take longer to break into flippy.

there aren't a lot of discs that are true stable. in fact, most are midranges or overstable drivers. the "important ones" have basically been listed.

basically, there's only 2 molds that are true stable and designed as straight drivers: starfire-x and teebird.

the next two closest are dependent upon plastic, but are the z avenger and z xl.

important mids: roc and wasp. putters = big bead aviar, wizard, challenger, banger.
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Postby disc_golfing_fool » Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:30 pm

After a few weeks of playing with true stable discs, I've begun to rid my self of the "torque monkey" on my back.

This whole process is really starting to pay dividends. I shot a 55 on a par 60 layout today, crushing my previous best by 6 strokes.

Firebirds, Starfires, Teebirds, Rocs, Wizards. I can't say enough about how this disc minimalism, and throwing mostly "true stable" discs is improving my game! Fire chickens and star-brights accounted for only five throws.

On a related note, it is clear to me that the SOLF has a pronounced notch on the underside of its wing. While slightly high-speed understable, it shares many of the flight characteristics of the "true stable" drivers (ie. teebird). I am throwing this thing nearly as far as my "volume 11" drivers, with immensely more control. I am loving it, even more now that I'm smoothing out my throw.

I still can't putt for doo doo, though. Practice basket, here I come.
~~~some rise, some fall, some climb to get to Terrapin~~~
~~peace.love.disc~~

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